German airplane question

[Athius]

Iam working on a mod that should give the japanese player a bigger chance of 'winning' (sustaining) the pacific war,

to archieve this the japanese get:

1. Stronger more developed industry (more hi, bigger factories to represent large industrial modernizations in the 20/30's)

2. Acces to german warplanes, like the bf 109 and the fw 190.
In the vanilla game the japanese player has the ability to produce highly expirimental aircraft like the shinden, so a licensed produced bf 109/fw 190 doesnt seem to unhistorical (many axis minors produced licensed german fighter after all) There won't be any factories that are producing the plane from the start.

There is one problem though:

What should be the stats of the german fighters? I looked in the editor but didn't have any idea what many options and statistics ment. Have the fw 190 and the bf 109 been used in mods before and, if so, is there any chance that I could use them for my mod?

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, there's 109/190 and then there's 109/190. What models were you thinking about adding?

[Athius]

Good point :p



According to wikipedia the Japanese received the Focke Wulf Fw-190 A-5, the Ta 152 and the Messerschmitt Me Bf 109 E-4

[eMonticello]

I think there are many books that compare German and Allied aircraft. So, you could use comparable Allied aircraft as a template and modify the stats to reflect differences.

[Shark7]

Bf-109E and FW-190-A5 would be good if you want to give them the early war fighters. Now remember these aircraft are only slightly better defensively than the Japanese aircraft they replace, it was the late war models that had the highly increased armor levels.

FW-200 Kondor and He-111F would be perfectly legit to add, as the Japanese did place orders for both that were not followed through on. No numbers on the actual airframes requested on the FW-200, but they was an order placed and canceled for 48 HE-111Fs, and this was done before the war started in Europe.

If you want to make the Japanese more competetive in the late war, then the FW-190-A8, or FW-190-D series would be good. The Ta-152, which the plans were acquired or the Me-262.

[DuckofTindalos]

Here's my take on the three aircraft the original poster wanted. First, the 109:

[DuckofTindalos]

190:

[DuckofTindalos]

152:

[Shark7]

It's really interesting how 2 different modders can come up with similar but different stats for the planes.

My sources might be wrong, but the cruise speed for the 109E-4 is much higher than that listed for the E-7 in the resource I'm using. I can see the slowdown with the addition of armor, but not quite as much as I seem to be seeing, my resource could be very wrong of course, many of them are.

[DuckofTindalos]

I've lifted these German stats directly out of Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich, since they use the same data fields. Convenient, eh?

[JuanG]

I think those maneuver values seem off.

If you took these directly out of ED/BtR, then that would explain why as AE and ED/BtR do not have the same values for manuever for the same aircraft. The other stats are probably ok.

[DuckofTindalos]

How are they "off"?

[JuanG]

In the sense that most latewar allied aircraft fall within the 15-25 range, and even the Zeroes only get up to around 30-35.

In BtR on the otherhand, most allied aircraft are in the 25-35 bracket, and thus those values make sense.

Thats why they seem 'off'. I'd guess around 18-26 would be appropriate for AE.

[Shark7]

Also throw in that what I've read about both the FW-190 and Ta-152 is that they were more maneuverable at higher altitudes. Now was that a comparison between other aircraft at that altitude, or does it mean that the planes actually handle better at the higher altitude than at lower altitude? I'm unsure what the authors are comparing. If the latter is the case, then the planes should actually go up in maneuverability in the higher altitude bands in game.

[Athius]

Wow! Thank you Terminus!

The Ki-62 1a "Herman" is in the game and the rest will follow soon.
I don't suppose that the BOTR aircraft database has been put online?


@JuanG hmm, good point. I've set the 109 to 24 for the moment (which is similar to the Tony and seeing how that airplane was based on the 109 I think their peformance would be comparable) But I'll try to find a more satisfying solution tomorrow.


@Shark7

Bf-109E and FW-190-A5 would be good if you want to give them the early war fighters. Now remember these aircraft are only slightly better defensively than the Japanese aircraft they replace, it was the late war models that had the highly increased armor levels.

Thats true, but Iam facing a bit of a dilemma here as I try to keep my scenario plausible without going to overboard in the aircraft added (The risk of stuka's flying in the pacific would be dangerously close if I did)

I think i'll add the early war variants as production options (as the japanese have non in stock and would have to shift production in factories to actualy get them, adding another strategic decision for the japanese player) and that the newer versions will be upgrades which will become available +/- a few month after the actual model has been taken into production by zee germans (to represent the need to ship the blueprints by submarine and addapt them to a japanese design)

FW-200 Kondor and He-111F would be perfectly legit to add, as the Japanese did place orders for both that were not followed through on. No numbers on the actual airframes requested on the FW-200, but they was an order placed and canceled for 48 HE-111Fs, and this was done before the war started in Europe.

The Japanese Navy requested a military version of the Fw 200 for search and patrol duties, so Tank designed the Fw 200 V10 with military equipment. This plane was held in Germany because war had broken out in Europe by that time. This airplane became the basis for all later military models used by the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe initially used the aircraft to support the Kriegsmarine, making great loops out across the North Sea and, following the fall of France, the Atlantic Ocean. The aircraft undertook maritime patrols and reconnaissance, searching for Allied convoys and warships that could be reported for targeting by U-boats. The Fw 200 could also carry a 900-kilogram (2,000 lb) bomb load, or naval mines, to use against shipping, and it was claimed that from June 1940 to February 1941, they sank 331,122 tonnes (365,000 tons) of shipping despite a rather crude bombsight arrangement. The attacks were carried out at extremely low altitude in order to "bracket" the target ship with three bombs; this almost guaranteed a hit. Winston Churchill called the Fw 200 the "Scourge of the Atlantic" during the Battle of the Atlantic due to its contribution to the heavy Allied shipping losses.[1]
Wikipedia

That plane would make a fine patrol bomber for the japanese indeed. As soon as I solve the 'stat problem' I'll add the scourge of the pacific to the japanese arsenal, although they'll probably have to be produced first.

48 he 111f's have been added to the Japanese bomber pool. Iam still trying to find out whether they had ordered the f4 (bomber variant) or the transport version so I'll leave the stats blank for the moment. (not that I know any, but Iam working on that)

It's really interesting how 2 different modders can come up with similar but different stats for the planes.

So these planes have been moded before? Do you know which mods that where?


Thanks for all your help!

Jasper.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: JuanG

In the sense that most latewar allied aircraft fall within the 15-25 range, and even the Zeroes only get up to around 30-35.

In BtR on the otherhand, most allied aircraft are in the 25-35 bracket, and thus those values make sense.

Thats why they seem 'off'. I'd guess around 18-26 would be appropriate for AE.

Sounds like they do need to be tweaked a bit. I don't think the EDBtR team tweaked their data to correspond with ours. Good catch.

[DuckofTindalos]

As for the Condor, it would have been a poor choice for the IJNAF, being too fragile and not a flying boat. Still, I've long since added it to my own mod, so here it is:

[Historiker]

Fw-200 is armoured in your mod?
Wasn't she to weak to be called armoured, despite some actual protection?

[Dili]

Fw200 had no armour.

Fw190 was maneuverable at low to medium altitude, at high altitude Fw 190 was crap, that was one of the big German problems that made them consider Fiat G.55 in earlier 43.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Fw-200 is armoured in your mod?
Wasn't she to weak to be called armoured, despite some actual protection?

IIRC, the FW-200 had a tendency to break in half on rough landings. The airframe was stressed due to being over-weight.