an updated look at Possum v5
One should always take the air losses with a grain of salt as the planes tend to, especially prior to the arrival of the craft armed with plenty of cannons, just be damaged and thus be only superficially lost... This is incidentally where the early German planes have the true advantage in the game; the cannon rating.
I would like to make some comments in Possum scenario, which I am playing for the very first time now. I know it is wonderfully designed but it is a pity that now the player cannot have full control over production, being the industrial side of WIR one most interesting to me. Some of the early tanks cannot be manually upgraded, and i must wait for the computer to make the appropiate changes. If it is the same intelligence that makes AI to have thousands of unused planes in the pool but few on the map, I would be seriously upset. Due to the lack of suitable slots (I guess) the ALT-R report misses some planes and tanks. I know that ALT-R is not a supported feature, but i like to observe the full distribution of assets. The important IL-4 plane for soviets does not appear, and the TB-3 is missing even in the pool inform inside the game (unless it is written so low in the screen that one cannot see it). I think it has to do with the many new differents airplane types.
Perhaps the scenario includes a little bit excessive number of different obsolete models. I have at the beggining some 15 or more distinct tank types, and for some of them i dont know how many remain in the pool, if any.
Nevertheless, i am pretty sure i am going to have fun with this scenario also!!
Perhaps the scenario includes a little bit excessive number of different obsolete models. I have at the beggining some 15 or more distinct tank types, and for some of them i dont know how many remain in the pool, if any.
Nevertheless, i am pretty sure i am going to have fun with this scenario also!!
9/14/41
In my first Russian game with this version, Leningrad and it's defending forces were cut off by a northeastward aimed panzer thrust. Although most units in the Leningad pocket have been destroyed, I can happily report that one PzKorps in the area was bombed to smithereens and forced to surrender. Despite the loss of over 17,000 aircraft, the Red AF still has some strength with many units with well over 100 machines. Many of these are i-16's, i-153's, i-15bis, and sb-2bis (could someone please tell me what "bis" means...thanks:)). Units containing the pe-2, il-2, and il-4 are present in far lower numbers and have been withdrawn to train and rebuild. Production of these types is slow, though. This, despite the fact that I didn't cnvert many bomber factories over to fighter production.
In the center, the Moscow defences forced the surrender of an out-of-supply pzKorps. The Shock armies defending the areas directly around Moscow have yet to be engaged, and air superiority in the area belongs to neither side. I'm interested in seeing what happens when the blizzards come, and the Luftwaffe is unable to get many machines into the air.
In the south, my opponent has reinforced his air units removing the command of the air I'd hitherto held.
In ther south, after removing all of the factories, Rostov has been left to the enemy.
I have many corps showing strengths from 50 to 70, and great things are expected of the blizzard turns.
Despite the loss of Leningrad, and it's large number of factories, the Soviet war machine must be outstripping German factories by far. At last count I was producing over 120 tanks of all types.
With the large number of artillery and heavy machinery factories, I doubt that the loss of Leningrad will cause any trouble.
In my first Russian game with this version, Leningrad and it's defending forces were cut off by a northeastward aimed panzer thrust. Although most units in the Leningad pocket have been destroyed, I can happily report that one PzKorps in the area was bombed to smithereens and forced to surrender. Despite the loss of over 17,000 aircraft, the Red AF still has some strength with many units with well over 100 machines. Many of these are i-16's, i-153's, i-15bis, and sb-2bis (could someone please tell me what "bis" means...thanks:)). Units containing the pe-2, il-2, and il-4 are present in far lower numbers and have been withdrawn to train and rebuild. Production of these types is slow, though. This, despite the fact that I didn't cnvert many bomber factories over to fighter production.
In the center, the Moscow defences forced the surrender of an out-of-supply pzKorps. The Shock armies defending the areas directly around Moscow have yet to be engaged, and air superiority in the area belongs to neither side. I'm interested in seeing what happens when the blizzards come, and the Luftwaffe is unable to get many machines into the air.
In the south, my opponent has reinforced his air units removing the command of the air I'd hitherto held.
In ther south, after removing all of the factories, Rostov has been left to the enemy.
I have many corps showing strengths from 50 to 70, and great things are expected of the blizzard turns.
Despite the loss of Leningrad, and it's large number of factories, the Soviet war machine must be outstripping German factories by far. At last count I was producing over 120 tanks of all types.
With the large number of artillery and heavy machinery factories, I doubt that the loss of Leningrad will cause any trouble.
Jesus ...., with all respect. This closet germanism is allways killing me.
Hello Preuss,
Thanks for the post-very informative. BIS was used to indicate a new version or model of equipment. I believe it was used by the French primarily, and is probably a French term, but if so I don't know what the translation is, if it is a word, but maybe it is an abbreviation??? There may be more to it than that also.
Thanks for the post-very informative. BIS was used to indicate a new version or model of equipment. I believe it was used by the French primarily, and is probably a French term, but if so I don't know what the translation is, if it is a word, but maybe it is an abbreviation??? There may be more to it than that also.
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
I decided to run a test of the campaign the same way I test how new versions of WIR affect gameplay, namely the computer vs. computer, no delay, no detail test. Whilst the computer generally does a poor job as the German, this does give a relative comparison as how the two sides fare per version.
The Germans took a horrifying beating in the two first winters, and in the mid 1943 I stopped the game a bit to check the production statistics... Production of the SU-76 was relatively high. But then I noticed a staggering 319 T-34 M43s were cranked out every turn. I swear I've never seen the production top much more than 150 in the regular campaign. The aircraft production, though more varied between types, was also outputting staggering amounts of La-5FNs, Yak-9Ms and Il-2/3Ms.
Edit: For reference, the game ended in an utter German defeat as all resistance collapses in the 7th day of the 8th month of 1944. Only two Me 262s had been produced.
And now for some boring statistics.
Production of T-34/85 about equalled that of M43 a year earlier; however, almost 100 IS-2 were cranked out each turn.
The quality, quantity and production of aircraft was overwhelmingly in favour of the Russians. Average experience of Soviet air units was 79%, that of land units was 80%.
Axis air unit average experience was 59%, land unit experience 66%.
Soviets had 9624 frontline aircraft, of which 81% were in fighting condition. The number is 3363 and 74% for the Germans.
It is interesting to note that German tank production didn't totally collapse under the difficulty of replacing the losses and up to the end they fielded some powerful formations; conversely infantry and artillery losses (and replacements) were utterly catastrophic and the pools regularly contained less than 50 squads and 20 arty. Infantry division strength had collapsed to less than 100 squads in most cases, and most had extremely little to no artillery at all.
The Soviets had 22798 tanks at the frontlines and 43049 in the pools, making for a total of 65847 tanks. The German equivalants were 7449/2358/9807.
The Germans took a horrifying beating in the two first winters, and in the mid 1943 I stopped the game a bit to check the production statistics... Production of the SU-76 was relatively high. But then I noticed a staggering 319 T-34 M43s were cranked out every turn. I swear I've never seen the production top much more than 150 in the regular campaign. The aircraft production, though more varied between types, was also outputting staggering amounts of La-5FNs, Yak-9Ms and Il-2/3Ms.
Edit: For reference, the game ended in an utter German defeat as all resistance collapses in the 7th day of the 8th month of 1944. Only two Me 262s had been produced.
Code: Select all
Losses are as follows.
Germans Russians
Squads 154 547 153 012
AFVs 38 066 49 236
Arty 67 065 62 049
Aircraft 47 493 93 531
Production of T-34/85 about equalled that of M43 a year earlier; however, almost 100 IS-2 were cranked out each turn.
The quality, quantity and production of aircraft was overwhelmingly in favour of the Russians. Average experience of Soviet air units was 79%, that of land units was 80%.
Axis air unit average experience was 59%, land unit experience 66%.
Soviets had 9624 frontline aircraft, of which 81% were in fighting condition. The number is 3363 and 74% for the Germans.
It is interesting to note that German tank production didn't totally collapse under the difficulty of replacing the losses and up to the end they fielded some powerful formations; conversely infantry and artillery losses (and replacements) were utterly catastrophic and the pools regularly contained less than 50 squads and 20 arty. Infantry division strength had collapsed to less than 100 squads in most cases, and most had extremely little to no artillery at all.
The Soviets had 22798 tanks at the frontlines and 43049 in the pools, making for a total of 65847 tanks. The German equivalants were 7449/2358/9807.
I did some more searching and found that bis is French for second. I am guessing the French usage leaked over to the other to the designation of other nation's equipment in some cases, either because that nation used it directly or in translations other people used it to designate these models that were slight changes from standard???Originally posted by Preuss
I've seen 'bis' used on russian and italian aircraft...and possibly others...though never German
Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Hello All
Bis was widely used to indicate an "improved" model of a Tank or an Aircraft.
Confusingly, the Russian symbol for bis is "6"
This caused me much confusion in researching Russian air units, untill I caught on. (I was trying hard at one point to find non-russian language sorces on the I-156 and SB-26!)
I suppose I should have actually labeled the I-15bis the I-156 and the SB-2bis as the SB-26, but I thought that would cause much confusion.
Also, the I-153 is also known as the I-15ter ("third")
Bis was widely used to indicate an "improved" model of a Tank or an Aircraft.
Confusingly, the Russian symbol for bis is "6"
This caused me much confusion in researching Russian air units, untill I caught on. (I was trying hard at one point to find non-russian language sorces on the I-156 and SB-26!)
I suppose I should have actually labeled the I-15bis the I-156 and the SB-2bis as the SB-26, but I thought that would cause much confusion.
Also, the I-153 is also known as the I-15ter ("third")
"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
Another two weeks of gametime has passed, and the first mud turn is upon us. The Red army is huge, and although my opponent has destroyed some 50,000 squads...and correspondingly high numbers of other materiel', i don't think the Red army has much to worry about.
His progress:
In the north, to the river line that runs north/south NE of the Moscow area. An armored thrust that came around the north edge of the city is in real danger of being cut off and destroyed now that movement has been reduced to 2 hexes.
In the Center, two hexes west of Moscow proper. Two hexes SW of Bryansk. Two hexes from Voronezh.
In the South: Rostov has long since fallen, and his furthest eastward troops are midway between Rostov and Stalingrad.
Except in the north, I have strong lines of corps facing his, and have delivered several counterattacks leading to the loss of 3 PzKorps...something I'd have never expected to do in the first year of version 3.2
Despite some heavy air attacks made in the Moscow area which ate up a lot of our airpower, his German fighter units still rule when they are within CAP range...I find myself counting hexes often;)
Three weeks of attacks have been delivered to Ploesti. Most have had little success other than to demonstrate that units flying the Falco couldn't match up against a large escort of Mig-3's. To rectify this, he sent a unit of 109F's to the target. My raids were still able to get through despite heavy loss.
With the difficulty the German side must experience in keeping his air units within range of his armoured thrusts, the Red Air force has been able to fly combat missions thoughout the first year. The long range of many aircraft enables the Red Player to pick and choose attacks. With the German bombers restricted to such short ranges, the Red player need not consider the 3-hex/edge of map rule.
I harbor doubts that the German side can win with this version.
His progress:
In the north, to the river line that runs north/south NE of the Moscow area. An armored thrust that came around the north edge of the city is in real danger of being cut off and destroyed now that movement has been reduced to 2 hexes.
In the Center, two hexes west of Moscow proper. Two hexes SW of Bryansk. Two hexes from Voronezh.
In the South: Rostov has long since fallen, and his furthest eastward troops are midway between Rostov and Stalingrad.
Except in the north, I have strong lines of corps facing his, and have delivered several counterattacks leading to the loss of 3 PzKorps...something I'd have never expected to do in the first year of version 3.2
Despite some heavy air attacks made in the Moscow area which ate up a lot of our airpower, his German fighter units still rule when they are within CAP range...I find myself counting hexes often;)
Three weeks of attacks have been delivered to Ploesti. Most have had little success other than to demonstrate that units flying the Falco couldn't match up against a large escort of Mig-3's. To rectify this, he sent a unit of 109F's to the target. My raids were still able to get through despite heavy loss.
With the difficulty the German side must experience in keeping his air units within range of his armoured thrusts, the Red Air force has been able to fly combat missions thoughout the first year. The long range of many aircraft enables the Red Player to pick and choose attacks. With the German bombers restricted to such short ranges, the Red player need not consider the 3-hex/edge of map rule.
I harbor doubts that the German side can win with this version.
Jesus ...., with all respect. This closet germanism is allways killing me.
-
itsjustme0770
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2002 10:00 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
I am his opponent in this game and I will concur with his analysis that it is likely the germans can not win this scenario. We'll see for sure as '42 approaches. I am certainly not the best german player out there, so others may certainly have some success, however, my thoughts are that it will require a very very high level of aggressiveness in '41 to lead to a potential victory in '42 and this has been my strategy.
All in all, I suspect that this makes the game the most historically correct of all the versions. Simply put, the Soviets don't run out of men or material and can continue to suffer huge losses.
All in all, I suspect that this makes the game the most historically correct of all the versions. Simply put, the Soviets don't run out of men or material and can continue to suffer huge losses.
10/5/41
Second week of rain turning to first week of snow. Moscow still safe, Voronezh still under the communist yoke as well.
REd air is still powerfull despite huge losses of all types. Did a count of air units:
39 fighter and fighter bomber wings
23 purely ground attack wings
13 all purpose bomber wings (meaning they can perform all functions...like air supply)
3 strictly supply wings.
I've withdrawn all air units to raise the number of serviceable machines above the 30%-50% currently causing missions to be mounted by small groups
Ground units are still quite strong, some with strengths rising easily over 100. Tanks numbers are high, and tank production must easily drawf axis capabilities. Last count, I was building around 150 of all new types per week
As I've stated before, the loss of Leningrad in thsi version is quite inconsequential. In version 3.2, the loss of that city on the Neva dropped the resource value to 85. In this version, despite the loss of that city, resource still shows 130.
Looking at other values, I don't believe the loss of the caucases oilfields would cripple Ivan.
I've 2 Guard divisions currently on the roster...I've never seen any before the blizzards came in version 3.2. Many other divisions have EXP topping 65.
Second week of rain turning to first week of snow. Moscow still safe, Voronezh still under the communist yoke as well.
REd air is still powerfull despite huge losses of all types. Did a count of air units:
39 fighter and fighter bomber wings
23 purely ground attack wings
13 all purpose bomber wings (meaning they can perform all functions...like air supply)
3 strictly supply wings.
I've withdrawn all air units to raise the number of serviceable machines above the 30%-50% currently causing missions to be mounted by small groups
Ground units are still quite strong, some with strengths rising easily over 100. Tanks numbers are high, and tank production must easily drawf axis capabilities. Last count, I was building around 150 of all new types per week
As I've stated before, the loss of Leningrad in thsi version is quite inconsequential. In version 3.2, the loss of that city on the Neva dropped the resource value to 85. In this version, despite the loss of that city, resource still shows 130.
Looking at other values, I don't believe the loss of the caucases oilfields would cripple Ivan.
I've 2 Guard divisions currently on the roster...I've never seen any before the blizzards came in version 3.2. Many other divisions have EXP topping 65.
Jesus ...., with all respect. This closet germanism is allways killing me.
For historical information only.
1st Gds, 2nd Gds, 3rd Gds, and 4th Gds Rifle Divisions formed on the 18-9-1941 from respectivly the 100th, 127th, 153rd and 161st Rifle divisions.
5th Gds, 6th Gds, and 7th Gds Rifle divisions formed on the 26-9-1941 from respectivly the 120th, 64th and 316th Rifle divisions.
1st Gds, 2nd Gds, 3rd Grds, and 4th Gds Cavalry Divisions formed on the 26-11-1941 from respectivly the 5th, 9th, 50th, and 53rd Cavalry Divisions.
PS I have been thinking about ways I might be able to slow down the Soviet Juggernaught I've created.
And the only thing I have come up with is to prune the Soviet Heavy industry back a bit.
Perhaps to split the Urals Heavy industry into 3 seperate factories, and delay the 2nd untill Sept 1941, and the third untill Jan 1942?
Also, maybe wind back the Arrival date of some of the Siberian Units? Keeping in Mind that the great majority had arrived in time for the Soviet Winter Offensive.
(I ruled out cutting back on the numbers of the Tanks, Aircraft, Units and Factories, as they are historically correct, as far as I have been able to research.)
PPS Remember the original goal I had in mind, was to re-create for my own experience as the German player, the two great Laments of the German Army in August 1941
1) How many Tanks do the %$*@ Soviets have?
2) And How are we supposed to Stop Them?:D
That Said, I Have tried to create the Most Historically Accurate and Correct Scenario I Could.
1st Gds, 2nd Gds, 3rd Gds, and 4th Gds Rifle Divisions formed on the 18-9-1941 from respectivly the 100th, 127th, 153rd and 161st Rifle divisions.
5th Gds, 6th Gds, and 7th Gds Rifle divisions formed on the 26-9-1941 from respectivly the 120th, 64th and 316th Rifle divisions.
1st Gds, 2nd Gds, 3rd Grds, and 4th Gds Cavalry Divisions formed on the 26-11-1941 from respectivly the 5th, 9th, 50th, and 53rd Cavalry Divisions.
PS I have been thinking about ways I might be able to slow down the Soviet Juggernaught I've created.
And the only thing I have come up with is to prune the Soviet Heavy industry back a bit.
Perhaps to split the Urals Heavy industry into 3 seperate factories, and delay the 2nd untill Sept 1941, and the third untill Jan 1942?
Also, maybe wind back the Arrival date of some of the Siberian Units? Keeping in Mind that the great majority had arrived in time for the Soviet Winter Offensive.
(I ruled out cutting back on the numbers of the Tanks, Aircraft, Units and Factories, as they are historically correct, as far as I have been able to research.)
PPS Remember the original goal I had in mind, was to re-create for my own experience as the German player, the two great Laments of the German Army in August 1941
1) How many Tanks do the %$*@ Soviets have?
2) And How are we supposed to Stop Them?:D
That Said, I Have tried to create the Most Historically Accurate and Correct Scenario I Could.
"We're having a war, and we want you to come!"
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.
So the pig began to whistle and to pound on a drum.
"We'll give you a gun, and we'll give you a hat!"
And the pig began to whistle when they told the piggies that.