ALLIED ONLY: aztez (A) vs erstad (J) ...2nd ROUND

[aztez]

Allied bomber pools...

[Rob Brennan UK]

Healthy F4 and Dauntless pools though, Have you upgraded all your American CV's to F4's yet ?

Sian . well .. not much to say really.

Fiji , excellent move by erstat there which no-one here actually spotted untill it happened , just proves hes a v v good player. then again so are you.

My guess is he'll stop after Fiji . NZ would be 'victory disease' and he'd pay for it. however for you sake i hope he does invade. Nows burmas in his hands how is the imphal/kohima/ledo line looking in Burma ?

Good luck and keep a stiff upper lip .. your an adopted commonwealth member now [;)]

[seydlitz_slith]

Horrible losses at Sian. Sorry to hear that.

My suggestion is that the next defensible spot would be the two mountain hexes west of Sian. You still have enough troops to make it tough for him there. Of course, you now have no oil in China....bummer.

[aztez]

Thanks guys. I will comment more on the above later on today.

Now I just took an pic from the upcoming turn and the question remains. Whether to engage or disengage?

The pic tells more than 1000 words here... now I'am off to work. I will start doing the turn once get back home.

[offenseman]

The RN CVs do not have the moxie to take on that force.  You might be able to nibble at the edges by tasking the Swordfish to attack the landing force at max range and setting the route to retreat that same turn toward land based air cover.  However the risk is that being hasty in attempting to thwart the Fiji invasion could easily lead to the loss of your RN assets. I wouldn't want to try to tackle either IJN CV TF with your TF. 

Is there a way you can use them as bait to get them a surprise encounter with some USN CVs?  I now you lost two CVs early, have you received Yorktown and Hornet?

Another thought, maybe others can respond to it as well:  Where is he getting fuel for those big ships?  If your intel is right, he has 6 CVs and at least 3 BB near Fiji.  That is a lot of fuel he will need.  Granted he has Rabaul and Truk, but has he had a chance to send a lot of fuel there yet?  Is it possible you could sneak behind KB and look for a replenishment fleet then retreat toward Pearl?  While it is risky he might at least retreat KB away from Fiji and at best you might find some transports or tankers steaming toward Fiji. 

[SuluSea]

Looks like the odds are stacked too much against you here Aztez, You can't win the war here but you can lose it/ give him more initiative than he already has. I certainly don't have your or even many others game experience but the way I see it during the summer you'll be getting some quality upgrades both in weapons and shipping and come september you get the 40 mm for your carriers , those two lost carriers seems to have put some real hurt in your game especially against a superb player such as Dave. At this point you have to wonder when he is going to stop and a play for New Zealand seems like a real possibility. I'm guessing your carriers don't have Avengers at this stage . Either way wish you the best possible outcome.

[Yamato_Blitzer]

Don't do it Aztez. There's simply no need to do that and you're so close to being twice as strong as what you have now. Hold out, be patient. Smash him later.

Even if you win, what do you gain? You gain the same as you will if you just hold out a little longer for those extra CV's. But the chances of success will be much higher if you wait.

I think maybe you're feeling some panick here, the effects of those disasterous results in china and burma and the failure of the P-39's....With everything considered, there's really no reason to panick....

[seydlitz_slith]

Too many carriers to fight. The only action that I would consider would be sprinting one of the cruiser TFs into Nadi to engage transports on a night move IF the weather was predicted to be bad. The only value to this would be to drive his landing force back while landing, maybe leaving only some forces ashore which you could beat duringthe next turn.

But to be honest, I wouldn't even try this since it would show that you are willing to fight and you would most likely lose the cruisers.

[rattovolante]

has he brought air support units with the landing force?
is he flying LRCAP from the carriers over the landing TFs?

if he's using LRCAP the fighters will become fatigued quite quickly. Unless he is using only a fraction of them and rotating them each turn, you might be able to strike when the invasion is over and his carrier-based fighters are fatigued.

I would consider lingering for a while to see how this evolves. For example, if he disbands his transports in the newly-conquered port, you might try a night port strike. Do you have any obsolete DDs you can "expend" in a night raid at Kandavu for example? That might induce him to disband empty transports if he doesn't know your carriers are nearby.

How does he usually arrange invasion TFs after the base is secured? Does he leave them in the conquered port and hops to the next target, or makes a single large TF convoy escorted by carriers, or withdraws transports piecemeal? In the last case you might be able to move your carriers "behind" him and surprise him on his way home for example.

In other words, I wouldn't try a big carrier battle, even if on equal terms, but you have enough firepower to inflict damage through less direct means. Note that in any case, you will suffer losses. But I guess you'll have an easier time replacing them, he looks spread extremely thin right now!

[LoBaron]

ouch Sian must have hurt. i was under the impression that he had his own problems
in that are but as it seems not enough problems to keep him from pushing you back.



I rather think that all comments above to avoid trading punches with KB now are spot on.

Not sure if i am talking total cr** now but could there be a tactic to hurt him without a direct confrontation with KB?

Just an idea:
Put every fighter (including the P39) you got on LRCAP over Kandavu, sneak in one CA force to attack the transports
but do not leave but stay, hoping that the KB strikes this TF next day.
So the composition of this TF would be a mix between big enough to hurt the invasion TF and small enough that you can afford the
losses (maybe even try it without any CA´s at all)
Move your CV´s NE to the Taveuni area just close enough to do a max range strike on the invasion TF´s but out of KB´s detection range.


Another option could be the "unsinkable CV" tactic we have discussed before, sneak in the carrier planes and strike the transports from the Suva AF
and disengage with you carriers to the east but stay in the area to pick up the planes if Suva gets close to falling.

Something like this or similar action could at least cost him a number of AK/AP and maybe some crippled IJN sorties from KB. Could be worth the risk.
What do you think?

Anyway heads up I´m sure there will be better times ahead.

[String]

I'd say go in with the cruisers. If you wish you could try and get in a max-range strike from the other side of the islands.

[aztez]

Thanks for replies guys. I will head out home in half an hour and start doing the turn. The next turn can be BIG one.
 
The concensus seems to be to withdraw with carriers and wait for better options with upgraded firepower.
 
Idea IF I would have engaged was the following:
 
1) Set the cruisers on full speed motion and send them in front of carriers into action towards KB.
2) Move in some bombers from Christimas Island into Suva. Set them on navalstrike and set all of the fighters on escort duty with 0% CAP. Using droptanks they could accompany the bombers I could direct into this operation.
3) Move in the carriers. There are 3 separate US CV TF with one carrier on each. The RN TF has 2 carriers and Hermes.
 
offenseman: Yeah, I have 3 US carriers in place at the moment. There are additional 2 RN CV's plus CVL Hermes.
 
If I knew that the british ones would take the hits than I would commit my forces but however this is very unlikely. So, I think it is better to withdraw.
 
SuluSea: Apprecited and I take count the word of caution. In most cases caution equals to wisdom.
 
seydlitz: You are propably right. I think he could muster 70-100 fighters on CAP plus launch few major airstrikes againts out forces. The caution vote is counted!
 
rattolavante: He is flying some 20 fighters as LRCAP on those TF's. I think at least 2 squadrons are on LRCAP.
 
The lingering movement is risky business since it is hard to predict where his carriers are exactly on the next turn. I don't even know whether he has spotted them as of yet.
 
He uses the single big TF tactic in most cases. I doubt the carriers will stay on here for long unless he needs naval support for the ground units.
The caution vote is counted.
 
LoBaron: The word of caution is also counted. I think the unsinkable carrier (suva) could be done but there is problem with the max aircraft supported. It is already overstacked with planes so I don't know whether it is worth the effort!
 
However that propably could be done even with the risk of penalties due overstacking! I can always buy out these squadrons later on or disband them once they get depleted and pick them up in west coast.
 
String: Intresting! How would go about with this cruiser assault? I think you are referring to assaulting his carriers with them?
 
I need think this through. No need to rush this turn as of yet since it could become quite intresting. Now off to home....

[String]

No, i mean attack the invasion fleets, they could be quite disrupting, escpecially if you manage to drive them out of the hex. You could also try and set their home base to Suva, so that they'll attract carrier strikes later and thus will attrit his carrier aircraft. Then again, the damaged ships will likely retreat to the closest harbour anyway.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: String

No, i mean attack the invasion fleets, they could be quite disrupting, escpecially if you manage to drive them out of the hex. You could also try and set their home base to Suva, so that they'll attract carrier strikes later and thus will attrit his carrier aircraft. Then again, the damaged ships will likely retreat to the closest harbour anyway.

Ok. This idea has been implemented into Operation Fortune! (details to follow)

It is about time to try and put an stop to this japanese menace around the Pacific. So, instead of just retreating we decieded to fight it out.

[aztez]

Operation Fortune (june 3rd - 4th 1942)


I did spent on 1 1/2 hour just going through this tiny area. Instead of completely withdrawing I opted to fight it out.

Allied HQ gave orders to the carriers to flow out their planes into Suva. The base is now heavily overstacked but it has the best pilots allied side can muster.

We did flew in the following aircraft:

- 73 US carrier Wildcats.
- 109 US carrier SBD Dauntless / Helldiver divebombers.
- 83 US & British torpedo bombers. (Swordfish, Devastator and Alcacore)

That is almost 300 allied fresh aircraft ready for this mission.

It seems he is staying around Fiji so lets see how the enemy can handle this force. There are a lot of juicy targets to go around.

As said the base now has nearly double the amount aircraft it can handle so I will pay an penalty for this but I think it is an risk worth taking. Even if flew just 1 larger and couple of smaller raids it can be succesfull.

The initial defenders at Suva were disbanded back to pools. Those squadrons were badly depleted anyhow.

The operation also has support from 2 separate ABDA cruiser TF's. (Their routes shown below). This at least should divert some of his bombers into naval action instead of airfield missions againts Suva.

Hopefully we can knock out few of his transports along the routes. The routes were done via waypoints.

Allied carriers are split and will retire down to south at full speed. I doubt he can catch them and I have still fighters on CAP just in case that happens... this very unlikely.

That is basic concept of operation Fortune. The first large scale "naval" operation of allied side.

Now we need some luck and even more luck. That is why this operation has the name Fortune!

[Swenslim]

How I love to read such AAr's and teach on others mistakes
 
I think japan player main idea is lure your carriers at decisive fight. All those islands in strategic terms are absolutly senceless for japan player in my eyes. When you get more carriers you can just hit Marshalls, build there bases and cut this islands untill the end of war.

[aztez]

The allied base at Suva...

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

How I love to read such AAr's and teach on others mistakes

I think japan player main idea is lure your carriers at decisive fight. All those islands in strategic terms are absolutly senceless for japan player in my eyes. When you get more carriers you can just hit Marshalls, build there bases and cut this islands untill the end of war.

Yeah, It is easy to see from "outside". I have had similar feeling many times before! [:D]

He did lure an fight but not with the carriers. Instead he will be fighting USS Suva and all those precious allied squadrons.

Even if I lose this out at most I have lost few aircraft that can be bought via PP.

I think this an onetime shot at this since he is most likely having some sort of an victory disease.

The allied carriers are out of the area with full speed and plenty of fuel so I doubt he can come hunting. If he comes than he will meet few surface combat TF's set on react 6.

Also he will leave his transports alone at Suva and those will be mauled badly if not protected.

To be honest eitherway this goes I think this operation was definately worth an shot!

[LoBaron]

Aztez can you combine some of the squads to reduce overstacking?
Naturally i dont mean the CV squads but are there P39 squads and/or some recon, bomber units that you can combine
or even fly out?

Good luck on this operation.

I guess ill refresh the WitP forum website until i go to sleep today. [:D]

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Aztez can you combine some of the squads to reduce overstacking?
Naturally i dont mean the CV squads but are there P39 squads and/or some recon, bomber units that you can combine
or even fly out?

Good luck on this operation.

I guess ill refresh the WitP forum website until i go to sleep today. [:D]

No. The only "old" squadron there was the Hudsons which is set on naval search missions.

Those P39D's got so badly hammered last turn that I lost +40 of them againts those Zero's protecting his fleets. I did disband them all as well as those +40 P40E's that were providing escort.

I will need to wait for 120 days for the reappear on the replacement list.

You wohn't be the only anxious person around! [:D]

I will check my emails many times tonight. Sometimes it has to wait for the resolutions of an turn when you know there will be a lot of action.

Hopefully we knock out at least couple of his precious carriers. It would even the odds so to speak!