That &$§&%§$% AI! -Continued-

[LargeSlowTarget]

Just happened in my game vs. Jap AI:

Background: Naval search found a small Jap TF near Johnston Island, reporte course West. Created a CV-TF and a Cruiser-Destroyer-TF at Pearl, trying to intercept the Jap TF at full speed. Got unexpected results:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 17, 42 [:(]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Niihau [X(] at 176,107, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 17, on fire
CA Kako
CL Nagara
DD Nowaki
DD Samidare, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
DD Isonami, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise
CV Hornet, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk [:@][:@][:@]
CA New Orleans
CA San Francisco
CA Vincennes
DD Sims, Shell hits 1
DD Hughes
DD Anderson
DD Hammann
DD Mustin
DD O'Brien, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage



Reduced sighting due to 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 3% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
[The CV-TF keeps closing although there is a friendly Surface-TF following in the same hex - Mitscher elected to fight it out himself...]
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Sawa, Masao crosses the 'T'
CA Kinugasa engages CV Hornet at 1,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CV Hornet at 1,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CA Vincennes at 1,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kinugasa at 1,000 yards
DD Samidare engages CA New Orleans at 1,000 yards
DD O'Brien engages DD Samidare at 1,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Hughes at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kako at 2,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CV Enterprise at 2,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CA Vincennes at 2,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages CA San Francisco at 2,000 yards
CA New Orleans engages DD Samidare at 2,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD O'Brien at 2,000 yards
DD Sims engages DD Samidare at 2,000 yards
CA Kako engages CV Enterprise at 2,000 yards
CA Vincennes engages CA Kinugasa at 2,000 yards
CA San Francisco engages CA Kinugasa at 2,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD O'Brien at 2,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD O'Brien at 2,000 yards
DD Mustin engages DD Samidare at 2,000 yards
DD Samidare sunk by DD Hughes at 2,000 yards
DD Isonami engages DD Sims at 2,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

[Jonathan Pollard]

Maybe it would have worked out differently if the CV TF was following the surface combat TF and not vice-versa?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Maybe it would have worked out differently if the CV TF was following the surface combat TF and not vice-versa?

I think so. The "followed" TF is always more likely to be the first to engage. The "following" TF will truely follow and will not be in the lead. However there is reaction code for the followed TF if it is a surface combat TF and has reaction turned on. This requires that the enemy TF be pre-detected, of course. TFs don't react to things they don't know are there.

Depending on what you got and what you expect at the target, you should lead with minesweepers and/or bombardment and/or surface combat - probably with remain on station. Then amphib TF with follow distance 1 (or more) and At Destination of 0. Carriers should follow with a follow of 1 and At Destination of 1. Note that this stack would move at the speed of the slowest TF (probably the transports).

I personally am rather cautious and would seldom send a follow stack directly to a contested target. I'd set the destination a couple of hexes away and then manually peel off TFs to go in and do their various jobs. Carriers would stay back and cover.

[castor troy]

the usual 1000 yard shootout. Are you using the first patch? Hopefully patch number two will be a step forward.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Well, I wasn't expecting a surface engagement, but a carrier-against-surface-engagment or a carrier-vs-carrier battle. I was wondering whether the sneaky AI used his Surface-TF as bait, with his CVs lurking in the distance. So out went my CVs in the lead, with my Surface-TF following instead of leading the CVs to act as "bomb magnet" in order to split and absorb (if possible) eventual incoming strikes. I surely did not expect that the enemy force would reverse course and ambush me. AI even sneakier than expected! [:D] [/align] [/align]AI gives me quite a run for my money - April 42 and SRA including Philippines lost, Burma lost, Cox's Bazar captured, Port Moresby and Noumea besieged, two invasions of Canton Is. beaten off (Hiryo, Zuiho and Hosho sunk in night gun/torpedo action - that's probably how the AI got the idea to ambush my CVs [;)]) - can't complain about lack of action. I'm loving it! [:)][/align]

EDIT: Yes, using first patch.

[witpqs]

The real problem is that you had Hornet and Enterprise instead of Lexington and Saratoga with their own 8" guns!

[:D]

[LargeSlowTarget]

LOL - yes, might have ended differently.

But well, in my game it is April 42 - important upgrade month - and Lady Lex and Sara are under refit at Pearl and have just lost their 8-inchers... [:(].

[Fishbed]

Had some CV vs Surface engagement too. Don't you have the feeling that there is something wrong with the screening mechanism right now? CV should try to get themselves disengaged as soon as the fight starts...

[LargeSlowTarget]

After the demise of Hornet related above, the opportunity for revenge presented itself.

Spruance commanding a Cruiser-Destroyer force ambushed Japanese CVs:


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 12, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Newcastle at 94,167, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Shell hits 8, on fire
DD Yugure, Shell hits 2, on fire

[Yes, that's a Micro-KB sent to raid Sydney!]

Allied Ships
CL St. Louis
CL Helena
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 2
CL Nashville, Shell hits 1
CL Honolulu
DD Dunlap
DD Fanning
DD Mahan
DD Drayton
DD Lamson
DD Case
DD Conyngham
DD Smith

Reduced sighting due to 7% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 7% moonlight: 1,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
CL Nashville engages DD Yugure at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CL Honolulu engages CV Kaga at 2,000 yards
DD Yugure engages CL Phoenix at 2,000 yards
DD Yugure engages DD Fanning at 2,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

[75 six-inchers and a barn at 1000 yards... And all 13 SC / SG radar sets out of commission?]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Newcastle at 94,167, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo, Shell hits 27, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
TB Sagi

[Yes, another Micro-KB...]

Allied Ships
CL St. Louis
CL Helena
CL Phoenix
CL Nashville
CL Honolulu, Shell hits 3
DD Dunlap
DD Fanning
DD Mahan
DD Drayton
DD Lamson
DD Case
DD Conyngham
DD Smith



Reduced sighting due to 7% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 7% moonlight: 1,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
CL Honolulu engages CV Junyo at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CL Honolulu engages CV Junyo at 2,000 yards
CL Nashville engages TB Sagi at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
CL Phoenix engages CV Junyo at 3,000 yards
CL Nashville engages CV Junyo at 3,000 yards
DD Smith engages CV Junyo at 3,000 yards
CV Junyo sunk by DD Lamson at 3,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

[Ok, against slower Junyo better results - and radar operators finally woke up. Spruance has redemeemed himself.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Coffs Harbour at 96,164, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga

Allied Ships
CA Indianapolis
CA Louisville
CA Pensacola
CA Salt Lake City
CL Raleigh
CL Detroit
CL Trenton
CL Marblehead
CL Concord
DD Bagley
DD Blue
DD Helm
DD Mugford
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Henley
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis



Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 27,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Range closes to 26,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 26,000 yards
Japanese TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 27,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 27,000 yards
Range increases to 28,000 yards...
Range increases to 29,000 yards...
Range increases to 30,000 yards...
DD Bagley engages CV Kaga at 30,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

[The slower ship manages to disengage - well, RADM Shafroth won't make VADM in this game!]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Coffs Harbour at 96,164, Range 18,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
TB Sagi, Shell hits 4, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Indianapolis
CA Louisville
CA Pensacola
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 1
CL Raleigh
CL Detroit
CL Trenton
CL Marblehead
CL Concord
DD Bagley
DD Blue
DD Helm
DD Mugford
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Henley
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis



Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 18,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Range closes to 26,000 yards...
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 22,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 18,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
CA Louisville engages TB Sagi at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
CA Salt Lake City engages TB Sagi at 12,000 yards
CA Pensacola engages TB Sagi at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
CA Louisville engages TB Sagi at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
TB Sagi sunk by CA Salt Lake City at 10,000 yards
TB Sagi sunk by CA Salt Lake City at 10,000 yards
Combat ends with last Japanese ship sunk...

[At least Shafroth managed to catch the TB... but this won't save his head!]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Snip - Allied sub attack several air raids against various Moresby-bound invasion forces- no hits.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7
B5N2 Kate x 24
D3A1 Val x 16

[That &$§&%§$% AI has split his carriers into Mini-TFs, sending them piecemeal to Canton Is., Port Moresby and Sydney!]

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 10


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged


Allied Ships
PC Kimball, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Selma City, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAKL Honolulan, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
PC Jackson, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
24 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VMF-121 with F4F-3 Wildcat (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes

Selma City caught transferring cargo ...
Honolulan caught transferring cargo ...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAKL Honolulan
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring PC Kimball

[The Japanes pilots score - albeit against sitting ducks]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Same cannot be said of the numerous Allied pilots attacking fleeing Kaga:]

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Brisbane at 97,162

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12



Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 25
F4F-3A Wildcat x 10
F4F-3 Wildcat x 10
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18

[Enterprise and Yorktown hastening West from Noumea send off a somewhat smallish raid for a two-carrier force at range 2. At least they coordinated with P39 escort from Brisbane - which should have covered the other P39 on naval attack, shown below]

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga



Aircraft Attacking:
18 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
24 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet

CAP engaged:
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Brisbane at 97,162

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1



Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 73


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga



Aircraft Attacking:
25 x P-39D Airacobra bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
24 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
24 x P-39D Airacobra bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Brisbane at 97,162

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 41 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes


Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 28


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga



Aircraft Attacking:
24 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 10000 feet
4 x P-39D Airacobra bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

Carrier support unable to supply air cover.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 104,132

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi
DD Minazuki

Allied Ships
SS Perch, hits 2



SS Perch launches 4 torpedoes at DD Asanagi
[To add insult to no injury - torpedos fail to detonate]
DD Asanagi attacking submerged sub ....
DD Minazuki attacking submerged sub ....
DD Asanagi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Minazuki fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Asanagi fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Asanagi fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Snip land battles - no surprises here]

Well, in several years of playing UV and WitP both against AI and PBEm I have seen my fair share of "questionable" AI moves and combat results, and I don't want to whine. But heck, what was the AI "thinking" - sending single carriers to pointless raids against widely seperated points? Extreme case of "Victory disease? Or just too much sake at HQ of Combined Fleet? And the Allied pilots and gunners did not exactly cover themselves in glory - at least one Dauntless or P39 jockey should have scored, just for the honor.

So what can I say? On the whole, Japanese strategic bungling matched by Allied tactical incompetence - so AE perfectly depicts the historic situation at that stage of the war! [:D]

[HistoryGuy]

I lost an American fleet carrier west of Johnston Island in the Ironman (Allies) scenario recently when I got too close to a small Japanese surface force heading for Baker Island.  My carrier had a cruiser and three DDs for escort and was heading to Wake to fend off the inevitable third invasion after the SNLF and Guards Mixed Brigade were defeated.  On the other hand, a US transport group brushed against a mini-KB near Suva in early April 1942 and a personnel transport hit the CVL Zuiho with three shots.  The sole escorting US destroyer sank an IJN destroyer and shot up two others.  That somewhat restored my faith in the SAG versus transports game logic.

[Anthropoid]

Just started my first match against the AI (me as allies) on Very Hard using the Ichi Hikko (or whatever it is, sorry my Japanese is pretty rusty) scenario where the AI is extra prepared for war.

Say, what is the difference between that one and the "Ironman" scenario?

[Andy Mac]

Ironman is EVEN nastier than Scen 2 for that reasonb Ironman is without a doubt v AI only its really really really nasty

I would be tempted to play it on historic......hard might actually be to hard art least for the 1st 6 months