TF Evasion

[vinnie71]

Ok I'm having some trouble with all this evasion thingy...

So the Shokaku came south to cover an invasion force headed towards Canton Island and I basically ambushed her TF and the TF she was covering with a carrier task force of mine. The Shokaku was heavily damaged over two days of attack with at least 2 engine hits. So I sent a heavy cruiser and 2 light cruisers to finish her off. Guess what? It evaded my cruisers twice in a row and is still limping away. How can this be? BTW its not the first time that this happened with the main Japanese carrier force evading surface attacks at will near Java (with one carrier damaged because of sub torpedo hits). This is especially true if they are encountered by night... Frankly how can they outrun some of the fastest ships in the allied fleet?

On another note of evasion. This is weirder still. I stationed a PT TF in Koeping in anticipation of a Japanese attack. Well the invasion force came in (1 AK and 1 PB), unloaded and left and the PT TF (under a very aggressive commander) didn't even engage. How is this possible?

Also the PT TFs are pretty useless as they are now. They don't engage anything and just keep running until they are either out of fuel or simply sink. They evade all the time even forces which are clearly inferior (ex lonely AKs) no matter what command or commander you give them.

Frankly I think that this evasion thingy should be toned down a bit. It is ridiculous to plan an ambush for the AI to waltz out of the trap like nothing.

[tigercub]

TF to TF action were not something that happened all the time the ocean is a Very Very big place if fact it happens to much in the game to date, as for PT boats they were not very effective during WW2 (only in the movies).

Tiger!

[vinnie71]

What I'm saying is that I actually intercepted TFs which simply evaded my forces even though they were composed of my fastest ships like cruisers & destroyers. Frankly, that's gross!

[freeboy]

this is an old issue, ae is better, but I feel your frustration, the universe is big arguement does not wash when tf are in sight of each other... clearly when contact of cripples is made surface tf, well supplied and lead SHOULD imo not have to roll for tf escape.. that is with a cripple..
Think about it, fires lighting up the night, smoke in the day, a huge closure rate.. so, if we are talking about in an engagement a tf evading with a cripple carrier is bogus.. in a mid ocean intercept the theory of a big universe is a little easier to grasp, barely
My rant over..[&:]

[FatR]

    I don't encounter that much evasions after the 1.84 patch (before the patch, they were common). Most often taskforces locate each other simultaneously. However, sometimes taskforces can just miss each other, particularly if on low reaction. Very annoying, when enemy slips right behind your combat TF to pound on weakly protected transports.

[vinnie71]

What I'm saying is that a TF was one hex away, with perfect recon over it (heck it had just received a bunch of bombs and torpedoes!), moving in one direction. Then I sent the cruiser TF and a crippled carrier with escorts manages to run away.
 
Or near Java I put the whole Dutch Eastern fleet in pursuit of a TF with several CVs, a BB, a CL and several DDs. I fight a brief battle, which then they procede to run away from, chase them for 5 hexes, and they evade every time (even though they had one CV crippled with torpedos and a friggin BB as part of the TF). Its no use having Doormann in command of the fastest cruisers in the allied fleet...
 
That is beyond belief...

[DeriKuk]

Was the enemy TF there? . . . or was it merely your Fog-of-War image that was glimmering over the horizon? What were the weather conditions like at the time?

[afspret]

Something should be done.  I had Lt Bulkeley and his boys sitting in Jolo, with reaction set @ 2, when a TF of half-a-dozen or so, unescorted, AKAs moves into the same hex and I started salivating in anticipation, but nothing happened and not a single shot was fired, as both forces evaded each other! 
 
Two turns later an IJN TF of 2 CAs and some DDs moves into the same hex and Bulkeley leads his boys headlong into them without hesitation!  The end result was 1 PT sunk, 2 damaged in exchange for 1 CA and 1 DD taking a couple of hits from the PTs .50 cal!  When I checked the surviving boats I found only 2 launched there torps during the attack!
 
Maybe what is needed is a happy medium thats in between what it started as and what it is now, i.e. not too over the top (with astronomical results) or overly whimpish.

[vinnie71]

Both times were in clear moonlit nights and following days. So basically they knew who was there...
 
PT are completely screwed now and that's a fact. From uber killers to whimpish/useless craft. As they are, they're practically useless...

[Redd]

My biggest bitch with PTs is that mine always attack with 50 calibers first, then they (maybe) think about torps afterward[&:]. Hey, they're friggin torpedo boats! If they're not gonna shoot torps why even show up. Fifty cals are for use against aircraft. I know that I should just get a grip, it's only a game, but watching something this basic act so goofy is very frustrating[:@]. Rant over.[:)]

Not the end of the world, they'll all be sunk soon enough (loaded with torpedoes, but low on 50 cal ammo).[:D]

[jackyo123]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

this is an old issue, ae is better, but I feel your frustration, the universe is big arguement does not wash when tf are in sight of each other... clearly when contact of cripples is made surface tf, well supplied and lead SHOULD imo not have to roll for tf escape.. that is with a cripple..
Think about it, fires lighting up the night, smoke in the day, a huge closure rate.. so, if we are talking about in an engagement a tf evading with a cripple carrier is bogus.. in a mid ocean intercept the theory of a big universe is a little easier to grasp, barely
My rant over..[&:]

I completely agree. This is the exact same problem i am encountering with my allied subs never engaging disembarking troops in small, size 2 harbors. Ive got 2 subs sitting and waiting in a harbor for the enemy convoy thats been sighted. Great, here they come. Guess what? next turn, i get the message they are unloading - and my subs are still sitting there, doing NOTHING. Only very, very rarely will the sub actually engage. I think the rolls need a slight tweaking - if you set a sub to ABSOLUTE threat tolerance, have an aggressive commander (say, 50+) and a mission to sink enemy transport forces when they appear in port XYZ, *and* have a clear picture of the enemy TF from snooping planes, I dont see how the sub (or in your case, the cruisers) could fail to find the enemy to launch an attack at least 50% of the time. As it stands now, the 'attack' rate is something like 5%.

[jackyo123]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Both times were in clear moonlit nights and following days. So basically they knew who was there...

PT are completely screwed now and that's a fact. From uber killers to whimpish/useless craft. As they are, they're practically useless...

ive actually had some ok results with the pt's.

Here are my stats from this week's play so far - jan/feb 1942, as allies (11 game turns)

- pt boat missions ordered (usually 2 pt boats per mission, threat tolerance set to HIGHER or ABSOLUTE) - 51 (from all bases in the PI, DEI, Singapore, etc)
- 'Both Task Forces Evaded' messages with no combat - 37
- Engagements - 14:
- Results - 4 damaged PT's, 3 sunk PT's, 2 destoyer hits, 2 akl's hit, 2 akl's on fire/sunk, 2 AK's hit, 1 AK on fire, 1 YB (I think) sunk, 324 japanese soldiers killed in 1 action, 57 killed in another.

So - not great results, but not 'nothing' either. Almost all engagements save 1 took place in coastal/port hexes.

The one time i left 'remain on station' orders with 'absolute' threat, my PT was sunk by a japanese patrol boat.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: jackyo123

ORIGINAL: freeboy

this is an old issue, ae is better, but I feel your frustration, the universe is big arguement does not wash when tf are in sight of each other... clearly when contact of cripples is made surface tf, well supplied and lead SHOULD imo not have to roll for tf escape.. that is with a cripple..
Think about it, fires lighting up the night, smoke in the day, a huge closure rate.. so, if we are talking about in an engagement a tf evading with a cripple carrier is bogus.. in a mid ocean intercept the theory of a big universe is a little easier to grasp, barely
My rant over..[&:]

I completely agree. This is the exact same problem i am encountering with my allied subs never engaging disembarking troops in small, size 2 harbors. Ive got 2 subs sitting and waiting in a harbor for the enemy convoy thats been sighted. Great, here they come. Guess what? next turn, i get the message they are unloading - and my subs are still sitting there, doing NOTHING. Only very, very rarely will the sub actually engage. I think the rolls need a slight tweaking - if you set a sub to ABSOLUTE threat tolerance, have an aggressive commander (say, 50+) and a mission to sink enemy transport forces when they appear in port XYZ, *and* have a clear picture of the enemy TF from snooping planes, I dont see how the sub (or in your case, the cruisers) could fail to find the enemy to launch an attack at least 50% of the time. As it stands now, the 'attack' rate is something like 5%.

True enough. What is even weirder is that sometimes a sub parked in a generic area (like just off Vietnam) ends up bagging more kills than a sub that has been given an order to stick to a port. I had one sub sitting in Jolo waiting for the inevitable AI amphibous attack which didn't even contact anything even though there were at least twenty ships, ranging from cruisers to AKs. It is also interesting that Japanese ASW seems to 'sense' where all my subs are. I had more ASW attacks on my subs than sub attacks carried out. Weren't the Japanese supposed to be really crappy at ASW work???

[jackyo123]

yes, they were really crappy at convoy protection, as they deemed it 'unglorious' or something - a demeaning duty. As for destroyer based protection for combat task forces, i dont know how efficient they were - there certainly were not a lot of successful prosecutions, but then again early allied sub efforts were pathetic (granted, mostly due to the lousy torps until '43 - the 3 problems with the torp: magnetic detonator (was only tested at high northern latitudes), firing pins that were too soft (inherited from the older, 28 knot torps, and unable to deal with a 40knot impact), and a combat warhead that was too heavy and caused a 'nose down' run that caused many torps to run too deep or to simply spin out of control and endanger the firing sub. None of the fixes were easy either, as the ordnance bureau's testing methods 'cancelled out' the problems (i.e - the testing itself was flawed, so it indicated that everything was fine and dandy). Not until Lockwood ran a boatload of torps into the hawaii cliffs did the ordnance bureau finally believe they had a real problem and not just 'wimpy' sub skippers).

So, in the game, I dont care if 9/10 of my torps fail to explode - i expect that - but I *do* want them to attack!

I think the routines that deal with detection in port hexes need to be looked at; certainly during invasions, where torpedo nets and other devices were not yet in place.