Shattered Vow

[Canoerebel]

Can't bomb when bomber pilots have experience in the 40s and every availalbe base is very low on supplies.

[treespider]

How else are your pilots going to get any better if they don't try?

[Canoerebel]

I thought training was supposed to work in AE???
 
 

[treespider]

On a related note --- did you remember to shut-off repairs to Chinese Industry?

[Canoerebel]

I would have remembered but supplies are so low that there's no chance of industry repairing.
 
(But, yes, I did shut off repairs and it will actually matter at a few bases - Changsha and Chungking).

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I would have remembered but supplies are so low that there's no chance of industry repairing.

(But, yes, I did shut off repairs and it will actually matter at a few bases - Changsha and Chungking).

I hear you about discussing some moderation with your opponent. Makes sense.

In the interim, might this realization of "Atomic Annie" artillery prompt a theatre-wide rethink of your strategy in China? Other players have successfully implemented the 'thousand little cuts' philosophy of moving Chinese units in penny packets throughout the countryside behind the IJ lines and harrying supply. If you can't defend with large stacks of Chinese LCUs in a single hex, might you consider yielding some ground and cutting every conceivable rail and road hex with small numbers of Chinese units? It would be harder for him to mass artillery on you if you elected to not hold most of the land.

Just a thought.

[Canoerebel]

Chickenboy, thanks (as always!) for reading and giving me the benefit of your thoughts.

In part, I have implemented such a strategy.  After Miller's troops took Yenan, I was left with a host of weak, disrupted, out-of-supply units in the middle of nowhere.  I have divided them and used them to interdict Japanese roads.  I think this had a noticeable effect on the small stack of troops he sent to Sian.

I don't want to employ that tactic in lieu of my MLR unless and until I have no choice.  In the MLR region, there are plenty of Japanese units at bases.  As we've seen, Chinese units in open terrain are decimated by Japanese infantry (and artillery too).  So I'd rather keep my Chinese in strongly fortified hexes as long as possible.  If Miller succeeds in pushing me out of my MLR, then I may have no other choice than to resort to guerilla warfare.  But at that point the war in China will be essentially over.  Then Miller will be able to turn his entire China Army towards Russia.  [X(]

So, the key for the Allies is to fight, fight, fight to delay, delay, delay in China as long as possible.  Eventually I'll have the wherewithal to turn the tables on my opponent.  I think.

[Q-Ball]

That's alot of PPs; artillery buys in AE are ALOT more expensive than in WITP, something like 250 pts per unit. But by now, he would definitely have enough to do it if that's what he wanted to do.

Although I play Allies, I am a JFB at heart, and I think China is a bit nuts in favor of Japan. Maybe the balance is just tone down artillery, because I'm sure Allied artillery will be pounding Japanese troops will work later.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

That's alot of PPs; artillery buys in AE are ALOT more expensive than in WITP, something like 250 pts per unit. But by now, he would definitely have enough to do it if that's what he wanted to do.

Although I play Allies, I am a JFB at heart, and I think China is a bit nuts in favor of Japan. Maybe the balance is just tone down artillery, because I'm sure Allied artillery will be pounding Japanese troops will work later.

Well part of the problem here is the Japanese player has emptied Manchuria of Artillery. So any attempt to compare this scenario to historical China is out the window...

[Canoerebel]

6/5/42 and 6/6/42
 
Jap Artillery Death Star (a/k/a The New AE Cheat Code):  The more I think about this the more troubled I become.  Not at the game itself, because it's new and massive.  That there would be kinks is to be expected and we all know the Developers are conscientous about addressing them.  What really irks me is that my opponent is taking advantage of an obvious flaw in the game.  There is no defense to a Japanese Artillery Death Star in China.

So all you Japanese players pay attention:  There is a handy shortcut to victory.  Just save up you Political Points, buy all your Kwangtung artillery, and send them to China.  Concentrate the guns against the enemy one base at a time and, voila, China will be yours.  There is no defense for the Allies - fortifications don't help; leaders don't help; training and prep don't help; and bombers can't be employed because the Chinese don't have supplies to support bomber squadrons and pilots with 45 experience won't fly.  Each turn you will inflict thousands of casualties and vaporize Chinese units.  Watch them magically go from 150 AV to 0 AV in one day.  And you don't even have to attack!  You barely even spend any supplies! So after a few turns a solid garrison of 2,000 AV behind fortifications will be reduced to a sad gelatinous mass of detritus that you can easily push aside.  Then move on to the next base, rinse, repeat. 

Pardon me for venting, but  [:@].  I'm surprised Miller hasn't said, "Hmmm, this seems cheesy, what do you think?"

Chengchow:  Japanese uber bombardments on the 5th and 6th inflicted 1,590 and 2,470 casualties.

China:  I am moving some Hurricane squadrons from India to China to lend a hand with air defense.  In addition to the artillery, Miller has been employing Strategic Bombing to level my cities.  The AVG has to be withdrawn next month and Hurricanes are my only fighters that have pilots with decent experience.  I do have some U.S. P-40 squadrons at Calcutta, but pilot experience is 45.

Burma:  The Japanese took Lashio. 

Subs:  I-6 put a TT into an xAP near Suva, but she should make it into port.

KB:  A Japanese carrier squadron showed up between Luganville and New Caledonia.  Patrols report at least two carriers.  Don't know what this could be, but Miller has to suspect that my carriers are somewhere in the area.  So he must be committing his full force.  But why?  Could he be invading Koumac or Efate?  I've placed my carriers into five separate CV TFs and they will head north from Auckland.  If Miller is making a move I will almost certainly employ them.  I've also moved some bombers out of Noumea and moved in more fighters.  The bombers are too few and too green to amount to anything, but fighters could exact a toll on any carrier aircraft that come calling. I really don't know what to expect.

Operation Bethel Church:  I believe this will get underway in less than two weeks now.

[Chickenboy]

Canorebel,

I advise patience in approaching this inflammatory topic. If I may be so bold-Miller seems like a sensible and respectable bloke. Infusing your game with language of cheating or rampant use of 'cheat codes' may be a bit strong. I'm sure there's an amicable way out of this. I encourage you to find that way rather than remain frustrated in your opponent.

Were I in your shoes (and this is what I'm thinking of doing proactively as a IJ PBEM x2 gamer), I would propose a limited number of days of uber bombardment. You are unlikely to receive hard coding changes re: supply use of bombardments in a time frame to satisfy you. Furthermore, since Miller paid PPs to extricate those units from Manchuko, he's done the honorable thing already. See if you can work out some 'deal': "Use your atomic bombardment for two turns, but no more. Then let the infantry, armor and engineers take over and settle the matter."

I would bet he'd bite on this workaround and you could dispense with the 'cheating' language.

There is a defense to a Japanese Artillery Death Star in China. It's the same defense as Uber-cap, nuclear SCTF bombardments, submarine-based invasions and every other little bug in WiTP. It's having a good partner that you can communicate (and AGREE) with. This tends to solve most problems and it will probably solve this one.

[erstad]

Agree with chickenboy, you might try just expressing your concerns to Miller and see what happens. In my game with aztez, after it became clear that arty was too powerful I self-restricted in, for example, my campaign for Sian and didn't bombard every turn, I would go a turn or two (2 day turns) without bombarding, and tended to do more deliberate attacks than bombardments as the results were more balanced, relatively speaking. And after Sian fell, we decided to have a couple week cooling off period in China rather than just seeing how far Japan could twist the knife. So it never hurts to ask. And it's a two way street. Maybe in '44 you'll have 300 heavy bombers strat bombing out of china, and he'll say "Boy, this seems excessive, unrealistic, and impossible to stop. How about if we limit to one bomber group"?

One of my previous PBEM partners (paladin, but I almost never see him posting on the boards) put it this way when I was getting my butt kicked in Scen 4 (witp-classic) and whining a little about game mechanics: "Last time I checked, this is a game. And games are supposed to be fun. So if you're not having fun, let's figure out what we can do to make this fun again." (As it turned out, I was having fun, I was just being a little whiny, so we didn't actually need to change anything.)

[Swenslim]

I think there must be some sort of HR, no more than 5 independent ART units in one hex.

[Swenslim]

And developers must increas supply consuming with prolonged bombardment.

[modrow]

Chickenboy,

I agree with you IF this issue is turning into a long-festering source of discontent with the game that would lead to the risk of its being discontinued (which may also happen if someone reading this would misunderstand this as some kind of abuse of the opponent, which I believe it is not intended to be, and pass this point of view on). However, I am not sure whether this is Canoerebel's set of mind; looking at what he went through against John IIIrd I actually think he would/will fight on in any case, even if something annoying seems to take place over and over again. He's a fighter. He even managed to self-restrict himself to WitP celibacy for an astounding number of days[;)]. But to be able to be more definite so let's use myself as an example.

I, too, tend to be fond of an occasional rant in the seclusion of my AAR. This is just for venting temporal frustration before getting back to fighting on and trying to develop a nasty counter. At the same time, it would never occur to me to ask for a HR or an agreement actively. I demand of myself that I will take the beating my opponent administers (even if it is only with the help of a flaw of the game engine). I have to put up with it and better think of some operation Port Royal rather than commiserating myself and whine like a whelp. Full stop.

I would most likely mention once or twice in e-mail communication that I see a problem or something seems unbalanced and see what happens, essentially hoping for a self-restriction, much like the most honorable course of action Erstad has taken. In this specific case, we are discussing a problem that an active forum visitor may well be aware of (I don't know if Canoerebel's opponent qualifies as such though), reducing the probability that I would point it out in my communication.
But if self-restriction would not occur, I would not ask for a HR and go for a vent every now and then instead.

Just my personal approach though...

Hartwig

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

Chickenboy,

I agree with you IF this issue is turning into a long-festering source of discontent with the game that would lead to the risk of its being discontinued (which may also happen if someone reading this would misunderstand this as some kind of abuse of the opponent, which I believe it is not intended to be, and pass this point of view on). However, I am not sure whether this is Canoerebel's set of mind; looking at what he went through against John IIIrd I actually think he would/will fight on in any case, even if something annoying seems to take place over and over again. He's a fighter. He even managed to self-restrict himself to WitP celibacy for an astounding number of days[;)]. But to be able to be more definite so let's use myself as an example.

I, too, tend to be fond of an occasional rant in the seclusion of my AAR. This is just for venting temporal frustration before getting back to fighting on and trying to develop a nasty counter. At the same time, it would never occur to me to ask for a HR or an agreement actively. I demand of myself that I will take the beating my opponent administers (even if it is only with the help of a flaw of the game engine). I have to put up with it and better think of some operation Port Royal rather than commiserating myself and whine like a whelp. Full stop.

I would most likely mention once or twice in e-mail communication that I see a problem or something seems unbalanced and see what happens, essentially hoping for a self-restriction, much like the most honorable course of action Erstad has taken. In this specific case, we are discussing a problem that an active forum visitor may well be aware of (I don't know if Canoerebel's opponent qualifies as such though), reducing the probability that I would point it out in my communication.
But if self-restriction would not occur, I would not ask for a HR and go for a vent every now and then instead.

Just my personal approach though...

Hartwig

Good post, hartwig.modrow. I am likely overlooking the 'vent factor' and assuming that Canorebel is thusly communicating these feelings verbatim to Miller. In retrospect, that's an unwarranted assumption on my part.

[SuluSea]

Patch 2 should be on the back burner unless it starts to offer solutions to the mess that is China

[Canoerebel]

Gents,
 
Thanks for your thoughts and comments, both here and in the "Jap Artillery Death Star" post on the main AE page.  My rant yesterday created some questions about what I meant.  Most of those were cleared up, I believe, by replies by others, but I should state for the record:
 
1.  As I used the term, a "cheat code" simply means a person has found a way to do something not foreseen by the developers - a way to do accomplish something not intended for the game.  It's the kind of thing that is typically handled by house rules - like addressing 4EB flying naval strike missions below 10,000 feet or massed ASW hunt/kill packs in WitP.  The term is not mean to imply "cheating."   IE, when I say that Miller has found a cheat code in using massed artillery, I'm simply saying it's an unforeseen quirk in the game that will result in dramatic and unintended losses.
 
2.  Miller and I have squared off in at least four games (UV, WitP, and AE) and he's a straight shooter and a good guy.
 
3.  We agreed to no house rules and that we'd self-police.  So I'll try to hold my tongue (except when I occasionally rant).  If he raises the issue we can deal with it then.
 
4.  I'm having a blast with the game despite the Artillery Death Star.  It has created my greatest challenge in the game and I want to see if I can blunt it or counter it.  If I can, Wow!  If I can't and Miller eventually takes China and then, say, moves on to Russia, well, I'll just have to beat him anyhow.
 
5.  If players forge ahead and deal with these kinds of issues we will better know what works and what doesn't.  So from a "test game" standpoint it's a good idea to play this out.
 
Now, back to the game!
 
Regards,
 
Canoe "I'm Chapped But Not Really" Rebel

[Canoerebel]

6/7/42 and 6/8/42
 
China:  Two more nuclear bombardments at Chengchow - this time inflicting 1,157 and 1,304 casualties.  I can hold for a few more days, but my defense is down to 1800 AV and I can't run them down to zero.  I've already fed in several big units and I don't have much of a reserve left to defend Sian if things get bad.  At this point all I can do is try to rotate some troops in to buy some time.  In addition to artillery, Miller is sending waves of bombers.  I just moved two AVG elements and a Hurricane squadron to adjacent Loyang, plus a Chinese Lancer squadron with decent experience to Nanyang.  These will fly LRCAP over Chengchow the next two days.  Miller has two units at Nanyang.  Chinese reinforcements just arrived so I will deliberate attack there tomorrow.  If this succeeds in booting the Japanese I may be able to cut the road Miller is using to supply units in Chengchow.  But overall things look very bleak in China.  At this point I think in a month or six weeks the Chinese will be down to Sian, Chungking/Chengtu, and the pocket of bases around Changsha, Kweilin, and points west.
 
Operation Bethel Church:  The Japanese carriers just south of Luganville "disappeared."  No sign of them.  My carriers will jink east and patrol waters well to the NE of Auckland.  It will be hard to load my Luganville-prepped troops because they are too close to the front lines now.  What I may have to do is orchestrate this so that my carrier aircraft and a bombardment group hit Luganville and then the carriers take a blocking position to allow the transports to load.  Additional troops are on the way from the West Coast and will be used if they arrive before I actually proceed with the invasion.
 
Subs: The damaged xAP reached Suva, went into port, and sank.  This was a disappointing surprise because she had only been moderately damaged.  I-159 sank an AKL near Cox's Bazaar.

[Ketza]

I have a self imposed rule in my games that I allow one artillery unit to be trasfered per every 3 regimental equivalents. I think in the future I will include that as a house rule until the issue is addressed if indeed it should be at all.