retreat system

[gwgardner]

The current retreat system, whereby a unit cannot retreat into another unit, creates unrealistic situations in a game of this scale.

A major example would be a breakthrough attack by panzers, which in the current game cannot be exploited properly, because the risk of taking a retreat result in a counterattack is so great, and would entail the loss of an entire corps or more.

ToW seems to be different in this regard, than RtV. In RtV, witness the AARs by Chuck and I, for instance, armored breakthroughs were common and exploitable. In ToW, not.

1) what has changed in ToW, to create this situation?
2) what can be done to get rid of this situation?

[Anraz]

Hi Gary, for your personal testing purposes try to restore some old RtV values from consts.csv (ones connected with  retreat).

[gwgardner]

Perhaps someone can supply those old RtV retreat params. I have deleted RtV from my system.

[Uxbridge]

Has there been a change?? I wasn't aware of that. As far as I remember, you couldn't retreat into other units in RtV either. What's the difference? [&:]

[gwgardner]

perhaps it's the probability of retreat that has changed. What I see now is that it is very easy to destroy enemy forces, by causing a retreat, with even rather bad combat odds.

[gwgardner]

This line is not present for RtV

#basic chance of land unit retreat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
100;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

What does that do?

I think I'm right, that in RtV there was no retreat. A unit stood until it was destroyed. Given the retreat mechanism in ToW, whereby a unit is completely destroyed if there is no open path for retreat, I think the RtV method is best.

[Uxbridge]

Ah, now I understand what you're refering to. Nil desperandum. There's no change as I see it. The "can't retreat - then die" situation was present in RtV as well. In fact, I learned to employ a hollow second line while still playing RtV.

What this new line does - I'm rather sure - is that you can now change the setting if you like. If you double the figure (200) the chance of retreat is doubled as well, on top of other circumstances. If, as you like, you want the system not to allow retreats at all, I suggest changing the figure to "0".

Are you playing ETO or the standard game now? In the former the chance for retreat has been doubled. You can not make a breakthrough by squeezing your panzers through the line, without great dangers to the units doing it. That is, unless the opposition doesn't have any stronger units hanging around.

Good you mentioned this. I'm so used to playing with this in mind, that I haven't even thought of others being unaware of it. I will inform group 1 and you tell the members of group 2. If you find that you like to change it, just lower this line to 100 once again in all your const.csv.

[Mike Parker]

I can also say I saw many retreats in RtV as well as units being destroyed because of not having a place to retreat.

[Anraz]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
This line is not present for RtV
#basic chance of land unit retreat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;100;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
What does that do?
I think I'm right, that in RtV there was no retreat. A unit stood until it was destroyed. Given the retreat mechanism in ToW, whereby a unit is completely destroyed if there is no open path for retreat, I think the RtV method is best.

Retreat was also present in RtV, but as very rare occurrence because the basic % chance that a unit retreat was equal to every 1% of its strength below 50%. So the line you mentioned was "hidden" in code with value 50, now is available for you to mod, but with default value of 100 (it means that any loss of strength rise chance of retreating, not only those below 50%).

[Uxbridge]

Anraz, why didn't you tell me?! So this is what I asked Doomie for? I never thought it would be included in 1.6. Thanks, thanks! [&o]

But now I must work a little more with ETO. [8|]

[Uxbridge]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

The current retreat system, whereby a unit cannot retreat into another unit, creates unrealistic situations in a game of this scale.

A major example would be a breakthrough attack by panzers, which in the current game cannot be exploited properly, because the risk of taking a retreat result in a counterattack is so great, and would entail the loss of an entire corps or more.

ToW seems to be different in this regard, than RtV. In RtV, witness the AARs by Chuck and I, for instance, armored breakthroughs were common and exploitable. In ToW, not.

1) what has changed in ToW, to create this situation?
2) what can be done to get rid of this situation?

GW, my mistake as you can see above. I will correct it. The entire combat system will be re-worked.

[Chocolino]

I wanted to address the point above on lack of tank breakthroughs as I see the same difference to RtV:

In addition to the higher risk to breakthrough units because of the more likely retreat (sufficiently discussed above), another reason is just a lack of unit mobility in ToW when comparing to RtV. (I just state the difference, not judging the realism as I really don't know which model is more realistic).

Compared to RtV a lot of movement restrictions have been added such as weather and additional rough terrain without compensation. So even if you are willing to risk a breakthrough often you cannot. That many be different for higher tech units in later years. But in the early years it seems to be the case.

[Uxbridge]

It is of paramount importance that you leave room for retreat behind your units. A dense mass of them are likely to get a loss or two. [:)]

If you like to alter the risk of a retreat result, change the line in question back from 100 to 50, retracing it to RtV-status.

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

I wanted to address the point above on lack of tank breakthroughs as I see the same difference to RtV:

In addition to the higher risk to breakthrough units because of the more likely retreat (sufficiently discussed above), another reason is just a lack of unit mobility in ToW when comparing to RtV. (I just state the difference, not judging the realism as I really don't know which model is more realistic).

Compared to RtV a lot of movement restrictions have been added such as weather and additional rough terrain without compensation. So even if you are willing to risk a breakthrough often you cannot. That many be different for higher tech units in later years. But in the early years it seems to be the case.

agreed on all points. I think I posted a tiny mod for reduced zone of control for armor and mech. My memory is faltering, but I think I'm using that in my current solo game. But I'm also going to go in now and change that retreat thing down to 50, as in RtV.

[Anraz]

Anraz, why didn't you tell me?! So this is what I asked Doomie for? I never thought it would be included in 1.6. Thanks, thanks!

So many thing has changed that sometime something just slip unnoticed or is accidentally omitted in change log.

[Uxbridge]

ORIGINAL: Anraz

Anraz, why didn't you tell me?! So this is what I asked Doomie for? I never thought it would be included in 1.6. Thanks, thanks!

So many thing has changed that sometime something just slip unnoticed or is accidentally omitted in change log.

Oh, I wasn't angry or anything. Just happy. [:)]

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: Anraz


Retreat was also present in RtV, but as very rare occurrence because the basic % chance that a unit retreat was equal to every 1% of its strength below 50%. So the line you mentioned was "hidden" in code with value 50, now is available for you to mod, but with default value of 100 (it means that any loss of strength rise chance of retreating, not only those below 50%).

If I reduce this value to 1, then I effectively end all retreat result, I presume?

[Anraz]

It should work.

[Harbinger]

I too, have noticed the propensity of units to want to move away from an unhealthy situation. Many times a crowd of units prohibits this and they simply resign themselves to oblivion.

...poor planning from the enemy, if discovered, will be received favorably...


The need to flee superior odds makes many of the battles I get involved in fluid and a game of maneuver.

[gwgardner]

At 20-25 miles per hex, an armored breakthrough can be modeled by blasting a hole in the enemy line only 1 hex wide. Advancing armor into that 1 hex hole is suicide with the default retreat rules, because even a very weak throw-away counter-attack has a chance of wiping out an entire armored corps.

If you take a look at the RtV AARs which Chuck and Chocolino and I did, you would find many exciting armored blitzes and encirclements, based upon concentration of force and blowing a hole in the enemy lines. Those holes could be exploited realistically.

No such action can take place in ToW, making it both ahistorical and less fun.