Aircraft research.

[ddiego]

To activate aircraft research do you also need to have an assembly of that aircraft or do you only need parts and engines?

[Hard Sarge]

you need frames also

[Tuk]

What are frames?

[Hard Sarge]

assembly

[Have]

This research is one thing I have not yet been able to understand

In the production menu all the plane types are available from the beginning of the grand 1943 axis campaign. Yet here in the forums there is talk that they are not actually available for production. I have tested this by configuring about 1/5th of the production capability (parts, engines, assemblies) to produce the Ta152 fighter and now I am in day 9 of my campaign. Most of the factories show delays of hundreds of days for the Ta152, but some of them are just couple of days away (less than 10).

So will those factories start producing the Ta152 when the delay gets to zero? If that is the case, then what does the "research" effectively mean in this game? Or are the factories somehow "researching" the Ta152? How can I know when each type is available for full scale production?


It is a great game, which I really enjoy playing, but I just wish that there would not be so much hidden logic and values in it. Actually I think I have never before seen a game having so much of its core functionality hidden from the player

[Tuk]

Production is not the best explained or easiest to understand aspect of the game, aparently there is a consensus that the whole thing needs reworking and clarifying. I'd have to agree.
 
As things stand, after asking many, many questions here, my understanding is that if a plane is unavailable, once you have 1 each on-line assembly plus appropriate engine and parts capacity, your research will begin. One such combination will produce 1 research point a day, though perhaps this is subject to a die roll, don't know. You need 100 research points to advance the availability of the plane by one month. So, and this is historically a bit dubious, the greater quantity of factories you throw at research, the sooner you will get your new design.
 
However, you need to make sure that competition for parts and engines does not deprive your research of one or more components for a research point, so, you need to know what else you have in production that uses the same parts and engines.
 
Another thing which shouldn't happen but until the next patch does, is your re-tooled parts and engines factories produce while on delay, so you'll accumulate these things when you shouldn't.
 
Personally, I don't think there should be any accumulation of parts and engines for pre-production models, unless, of course, they are already in use with another current model.

[harley]

Tuk - it's not production that will be overhauled, it is the menu system that drives it (which should clarify it). You more or less have the correct understanding of production, except airframes are built and used or stored. If there are insufficient parts or engines they are kept till there's stock to put on them. Once there is one airframe, one part and XX engines (depends on model) the game will try to assemble them. There is some randomness in the final putting everything together, but it never consumes components that are not made into a plane or research, so it will probably come out of the factory tomorrow.

Have - The numbers are when the factory is producing. In this case, the production will become research. As Tuk said there is a bug that caused factories on delay to produce when they shouldn't and some old hardcoding we didn't need that allowed Bf109G6 - TA152C transfers for free. Both will be fixed in the imminent patch. It's so close I can taste it.

As for research - it is significantly harder now. you need 100 points to get a plane due next month into this month. You would need over 10,000 points to get a plane due in '45 during 43. It does get easier the closer it is to production. Thanks to Lanconic for finding the flaws (logic and code) in our system.

[Have]

Thanks for the advice.

Is there any way I can follow how the research is going on? Information like how much research has been done for each plane type? Information when the plane is ready for production? Or some estimates?

[Tuk]

ORIGINAL: harley

Tuk - it's not production that will be overhauled, it is the menu system that drives it (which should clarify it). You more or less have the correct understanding of production, except airframes are built and used or stored. If there are insufficient parts or engines they are kept till there's stock to put on them. Once there is one airframe, one part and XX engines (depends on model) the game will try to assemble them. There is some randomness in the final putting everything together, but it never consumes components that are not made into a plane or research, so it will probably come out of the factory tomorrow.

Aha! I couldn't figure why, apart from just for the hell of it, HS recently refered to 'airframes' instead of assemblies.

So, just to be clear, can you answer this example please-

Let's say we have plenty of airframes (which, unlike other production components, are invisibly stored), plenty of parts and 1 active 'assembly.' This build up is caused by a bottleneck in engines. Suddenly 50 engine capacities come on line. Is there a possibility that 50 new planes will be built in one day even with just one 'assembly'?

If so, assembly is a misnomer as it has nothing special to do with assembling, but merely the production of airframes. The actual assembly, for all we need be bothered, could be taking place under the sea?

So, since airframes are just another component like parts and engines, and production has no special dependency on assembly plants, there is no reason for the status of assemblies to be reported differently from that of parts and engines in the production windows?

[harley]

In your example, if those engines do not get used by another type first, then yes, you will probably receive all 50 in one day. You don't even need the assembly plant operating.

I guess technically assembley is a misnomer.

As for your last point - this brings us back to redoing the production organisation screens.

[Tuk]

Thanks.

[vimconfused]

There was an earlier question about when an aircraft is actually available for production. I may be missing something (hey, at turn 7 of a 700 turn campaign I can most certainly describe myself as a newbie!) but I can't find a list which tells me the expected availability of German aircraft in the long 43 campaign, or indeed which ones can be produced from the start. I have no doubt it can be in the game somewhere and I just can't find it. For example, I see that there's Fw190G in the replacement pool but no factories configured to produce them so I'm guessing that it is available... but how would I know that if there weren't any in the pool? Alternatively are there types that are converted by the game from some other version for free?

Many thanks for your help in advance.

[Hard Sarge]

for the G model, the plane is a long range Jabo Model, meaning it trades weapons for drop tanks

it is there if people want to build it, use it

(now, in Luft Sud, that may not be a bad airplane, lot of area to cover and not really a issue for firepower)

[vimconfused]

Another minor research question.

Does the research (if you accumulate enough points) bring forward availability of units of whole months, or by numbers of days? I ask because I've just got to 30 November 43 and He219 has a normal availability of December (I am assuming 1st December... please let me know if these dates are not based on the first of the month). I have converted some production to He219 from the start of the game, but have failed to advance the availability at all. Sure it was only approx 5 (complete) assemblies (building up to 9 by this date), but nevertheless no research appears to have been counted (in units of less than one month anyway).

Edit: on 1 December I didn't get He219, but did get Fw190A-8. Very strange unless the dates I was advised of are wrong or there is a random element I wasn't aware of.

[Hard Sarge]

start dates should be the 1st of the month, end dates should be end of the month

from the data, 219 is 12/43 and the A-8 is 1/44

other then that, not sure what you got ?

[Hard Sarge]

I can't get inside of a save, but from what I see from the save you sent me before

you have in stock

for the 603A engine, (which the 219 needs)

you need 64 a turn

you have planned 59

you are getting 26

you have in stock 2

for 219 parts, you have 126 in stock

as of the date of the save, I don't think you are reseaching it, too much demand for the engine

it should still show up as of Dec, make sure on the 2nd of Dec to see if it is ready or not (some times it shows up on the 2nd day, also, if it is not getting built, I don't think it will show up in the lists

[vimconfused]

Thanks HS.

Point taken about no actual research going on as "too much demand" means available engines are being fitted in the Me410s.

However, its now 5 Dec 43 and I'm making 45 x DB603A and the requirements for it are:
Me410 assembly lines 16 (so 32 requirement)
He219 assembly lines 9 (so 18 requirement)
Do335 assembly lines 1 (so 2 requirement)
(there are no parts shortages)

Obviously the Do335 is research so bottom of the food chain. But even if all available engines go to the Me410 factories, there should be 13 going to the He219 factories. What has happened is that the factories produced a single He219A-2 three days ago... and none since! I only have one day data on the Me410 but my 16 assembly lines produced 23 aircraft yesterday.

All sorts of questions and comments stem from this, such as is there anyway anyone has managed to control which assembly lines get engines for which there is a shortage... even if not expressly allowed by the game, is there a work around? I'm making lots of Me410 I need far less than the He219... having a couple of Me219 factories bombed (lightly) would actually be beneficial, but I can't switch them off manually! Sure I could change the Me410 lines into something else, but its double the delays if I ever wanted to change back. But I'm still worried that there is almost no He219 production (yes I did check I was producing the right variant for the date!)

Edit: next day same situation: no He219s made; 21 Me410s. My other new production (Bf109G5/AS, and the two new Fw190A-8 variants) are producing quantities I would expect with no engine shortages. Since I'm still getting more 410s than seem possible, are all the additional DB603A engines going to some stockpile of partly completed 410 assemblies somewhere? More information on hidden stockpiles (if this is the problem) would be very helpful, but if this is the case, even switching off current Me410 production wouldn't make a difference I guess.

[Hard Sarge]

However, its now 5 Dec 43 and I'm making 45 x DB603A and the requirements for it are:
Me410 assembly lines 16 (so 32 requirement)
He219 assembly lines 9 (so 18 requirement)
Do335 assembly lines 1 (so 2 requirement)
(there are no parts shortages)

roger, I think what you are running into now, is you still have a lot of 410 Frames in stock, from when you didn't have enough engines (which is where you see that 23 being built in one day, the extra 7, pretty much sucked up all of the engines for that day, overall, would say, you are going to be getting 219s in dibs and drabs for a while now, until all of those 410 frames get used up

(when this screen was first worked out, way back when (old game), I think they figured if you knew how many parts were needed, you also knew how many Frames were being made, but, it is still confusing as you get down the road into the game, Harley has said, he wants to add Frames to the Stockpile list, to make it easier to follow what is going on, hopefully so, as it can be confusing, even more so, if you just look at it once a month or so !)

only thing you can really do, is to shut down some of the 410s and let the stock pile get used up (change the smaller ones to something you could use, or want to reseach (once there is no demand on the engines, other then the 219, you should see a large raise in the numbers being built (you will also have a stockpile of 219 frames sitting around)

{and to be Honest, as you can see, production is a pain, Engines are needed for this and for that, and the drain on the engines will drive you up the wall, what I wanted to do and couldn't get the coding in yet, was like the LW did, in 44, shut down almost all twin production, other then what was totally needed, in your case, you are needing 50 Engines for your two twins, if those were totally shut down, that is 50 Engines for fighters that could used (which to be fair, you are still going to want some 219s running around, so say 5 a day of those and 40 engines for day fighters)

[vimconfused]

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply. But by "shut down" I assume you mean change to some other type of production? Some sort of cap on the number of engines to be sent to each assembly (or stockpile of partially built assemblies) would be handy.

Incidentally, my 410 production has gone like this.

5 Dec... 23
6 Dec... 21
7 Dec... 19
8 Dec... 16
9 Dec... 14

And at the same time my "real" assembly lines have been reduced to 13, which of course may mean nothing if this is all being driven by stockpiled assemblies... though the slowdown appears significant. Having said that, I've still not received a single new He219!

Incidentally, my 109AS and 190G8s are producing as expected (they don't have engine shortages). For example, my 9 Fw190G8/R7 assembly lines have produced in the past four days:
8 then 7 then 5 then 11.

But best of all, its been bad weather so I've been able to change over a few groups to these new types, and get them all available for use; and add buckets of flak to my now mended radar stations, and many other places.

[Hard Sarge]

well to be honest, while that does look like a slow down and the burning up of stocks, I would be shocked if you are out of 410 frames yet (you had months with out enough engines, while frames were being built)

I would cut down the number of Frames being made for the 410, until you see a steady number being built, and then work out how many a day you really need (I would go for a model that does not need the same engine, and let the extra engines either burn up the 410 stocks, or get to work on the 219 stocks)

not sure why you are not seeing the 219, other then, the 410 is eating up all of the engines