FYI - Samurai Submarines

[derhexer]

URL to an interesting article in USA Today
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sciencefair/2 ... awaii.html

" research documentary team Thursday reports the discovery of two Japanese "samurai submarines" scuttled after the end of World War II.

The "I-14" carried two planes while submerged, while the "I-201" was a diesel-powered attack submarine with a range of 37,500 miles.

"These submarines are 60-year-old time capsules offering firsthand insight into a military technology that was far ahead of its time -- so much so that if introduced earlier and in greater numbers, the submarines had the potential to turn the tide of war," said Dr. Hans Van Tilburg of NOAA’s Office of National Marine Sanctuaries, in a statement.

The subs, sitting at a depth of 3,000 feet, were discovered by a NOAA Undersea Research Lab at the University of Hawaii at Manoa team along with National Geographic Channel filmmakers.

In the NGC documentary, "Hunt for the Samurai Subs," (Tuesday, November 17, 9:00 p.m. ET/PT), Navy officers involved in scuttling the subs, captured after World War II, say the U.S.A. sank them to evade sharing their technology with the Soviet Union as promised by treaty. About 400 feet long, the "Sen-Toku" class subs were intended to carry out missions against the U.S. mainland, including 1,800 pound bomb drops by kamikaze planes launched from the I-14."

Also, here is a link to an article in national Geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -pictures/

[wdolson]

I-201 or the I-400s?  The I-400s were the largest subs ever built up until the modern nuke subs. They were designed to carry a couple of attack aircraft and there was a plan to shut down the Panama Canal that was canceled by the end of the war.  The Serian float bomber was designed for use on those subs.  One still exists in the Smithsonian collection and Tamiya models has a 1/48 scale kit of it.

The I-400s were surrendered to the US and scuttled off Hawaii after the war.  I read somewhere the one or two of them had been found.  I just looked at the article, I guess the I-400 is still missing, but the I-401 has been found along with a couple of older, smaller float plane capable subs.

Japan probably built more variety of subs than any other country.  The Germans and Americans settled on a couple of designs and built them in large numbers. 

Ultimately it was tactics rather than innovation that led to success.  Unrestricted warfare against merchants was the best sub strategy.  The Germans only lost the War of the Atlantic because the Allies were willing to dedicate a massive effort to countering them.  The US had lots of success in the Pacific and the Japanese didn't appreciate the true weight of the threat until it was too late.

Bill

[Terminus]

Usual bit of half-researched mumbo-jumbo. The I-14 was not of the Sen Toku class, and the I-201 didn't have a range of 37,500 miles. 0 for 2.[8|]

[tigercub]

Those subs were sunk in a group of nine subs sunk together after the war I-201very big waste of time and effort like many of the things the Japanese got up to but information does claim the sub had a range 37,500m@16knots with 3 planes SORCE : THE INPERIAL Japanese NAVY A.J WATTS & B.G GORDON

Tiger!

[Terminus]

Wrong again. The I-201 was the lead boat of the Sen Taka type, and had a range of 5,800 miles. The I-401 was the lead boat of the Sen Toku type, and could carry those 3 airplanes to 37,500 miles.

It's SO easy to research this, but this stupid blogger couldn't be bothered.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: derhexer

URL to an interesting article in USA Today
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sciencefair/2 ... awaii.html

" research documentary team Thursday reports the discovery of two Japanese "samurai submarines" scuttled after the end of World War II.

The "I-14" carried two planes while submerged, while the "I-201" was a diesel-powered attack submarine with a range of 37,500 miles.

"These submarines are 60-year-old time capsules offering firsthand insight into a military technology that was far ahead of its time -- so much so that if introduced earlier and in greater numbers, the submarines had the potential to turn the tide of war," said Dr. Hans Van Tilburg of NOAA’s Office of National Marine Sanctuaries, in a statement.

The subs, sitting at a depth of 3,000 feet, were discovered by a NOAA Undersea Research Lab at the University of Hawaii at Manoa team along with National Geographic Channel filmmakers.

In the NGC documentary, "Hunt for the Samurai Subs," (Tuesday, November 17, 9:00 p.m. ET/PT), Navy officers involved in scuttling the subs, captured after World War II, say the U.S.A. sank them to evade sharing their technology with the Soviet Union as promised by treaty. About 400 feet long, the "Sen-Toku" class subs were intended to carry out missions against the U.S. mainland, including 1,800 pound bomb drops by kamikaze planes launched from the I-14."

Also, here is a link to an article in national Geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -pictures/

the fact that Dr. Hans von Tilburg said that the submarines had the potential to turn the tide of war alone makes me [8|]... what kind of Dr. is he? Veterinarian?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

the fact that Dr. Hans von Tilburg said that the submarines had the potential to turn the tide of war alone makes me [8|]... what kind of Dr. is he? Veterinarian?

Unlikely - veterinarians are smart. Probably a PhD Political "Science".

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

the fact that Dr. Hans von Tilburg said that the submarines had the potential to turn the tide of war alone makes me [8|]... what kind of Dr. is he? Veterinarian?

On behalf of my wife, and veterinarians everywhere, I resent that! [:D] My wife actually always makes a point of not pretending to know something that she really doesn't have a clue about.

[anarchyintheuk]

Every weapon/technological advance has to have the capacity to 'change outcome of the war' or it sounds boring.

Was wondering about the I-400s, were the airplanes able to warm up in the hanger prior to surfacing (using a schnorkel for example)or did the hanger have to be open for warm up?

[Terminus]

They couldn't do anything in the hanger except sit there, with their wings off, and wait for it to be opened.

[wdolson]

If the I-400s carried submarine launched ICBMs with nukes, then maybe they could have changed the course of the war.  The reality is they may have been capable of becoming a nuisance, but nothing more.  At their best possible scenario, the Serians might have done enough damage to the locks at the Panama Canal to shut down the canal for a few weeks or a couple of months.  That would have impeded the flow of ships through the canal and might have created a somewhat minor bottleneck in the US's war effort in the Pacific.

To do this, the subs would have had to surface within search plane range of the canal, pull the Serians out of the hangers, mount the wings, arm and fuel them.  Then launch them.  How experienced were the pilots?  Considering the quality of airmen at that point in the war, maybe the strike commander would have had experience, the rest would have been pretty green. 

Once launched, they would be flying towards an American base with fighter cover and radar.  It being a backwater, the base would probably be pretty lax unless search aircraft had spotted the subs preparing the planes.  The Serians would have no fighter cover.  Their only defense is a single .30 in the rear.  If intercepted, even by a modest CAP force, the Serians would be easy pickings.

There would only be 6 Serians with one bomb each (assuming all planes launched successfully after being assembled at sea and stored in a supposedly water tight hanger for a 6000 mile trip).  Each plane would have to make their bomb count.  They would have to achieve accuracy on par with early war Japanese aviators to shut down the canal.

The I-400s were advanced subs for their day, but nothing revolutionary.  I can see why the US sank them.  The Russian Navy was the neglected arm of their armed services, but the US had no interest in helping them improve their sub technology.  The Russians already had some late war German subs. 

And for veterinarians, it's tougher in the US to become a vet than it is an MD.  I get the idea though, the guy quoted didn't sound like he knew what he was talking about.

Bill

[castor troy]

I didn´t want to offend veterinarians guys, I was trying to say that while he seems to be a Dr. he seems not be a Dr. in history. Apologies if any veterinarians were offended.

[Local Yokel]

If instructed to attack the Panama Canal with WW2 munitions, I think I would want to take a look at the Gatun Spillway.  Looks to me like an easier target than the locks with a bigger payoff if you succeed in draining the lake.  But I would expect the possibility of an attack on the spillway to have been anticipated by the defenders.
 
V Adm Ozawa Jisaburo wanted the Sen Tokus to launch an attack against the US mainland using bacteriological weapons - bubonic plague, I think.  Since this would have been in the nature of an area attack, inferior Japanese piloting skills would presumably have been less of a problem.
 
Fortunately the plan was vetoed by others in the Japanese command structure, and that was one unpleasantness the world was spared.

[wdolson]

As the British found out, taking out dams was tough.  Regular bombs wouldn't do the job.

In WW II, everyone was afraid to use chemical or bio weapons for the fear that the other side would use it on them.  The Japanese high command probably envisioned hundreds of B-29s dropping bio or chemical weapons on Japan in return for a few canisters dropped on US west coast cities.  Trading horrors for horrors.

Bill

[Ken Estes]

Unfortunately, the Samurai Subs producer went for a quick story, trusted vets memories, hyped all, hence the "kept secret for 60 years"  "so the USSR would not obtain the technology"  "war-ending strikes on Washington and New York"  plus talk of Kamikaze and atomic bombs. 

Their story was published in the USNI Proceedings in the late 50s, there was no JA nuc bomb and the sub a/c could not have carried a 1945-46 bomb in any case; Kamikaze attacks do not kill dams and locks, and so forth. The USN could only have hoped that the USSR copied IJN subs, in the greatest of detail: slow diving, noisy, easy kills for 1944 ASW.

The hype even was picked up by the network news.