Where ae my resources going?

[pompack]

Scenario 1, playing Japan

In 41 days, my resource stockpile (per WitP staff) has been reduced from 7,322,400 to 6,582,211 which is an average of 18k per day. If I look at my resource centers, LI and HI I should be running between -2500/day (7 dec 41) and +980/day (17 Jan 42) with about 20k captured. I double checked WitP Staff and it seems to be calculating everything correctly yet the WitP Staff Resource History Plot also shows a daily loss in excess of 10k except for the days when resources were captured.

I seem to have misplaced about 700k resources. Does anyone have any ideas?

[n01487477]

Someone else reported a similar problem in an AAR, I don't remember who, but the issue was never fully resolved iirc. Are the numbers consistent with what you are seeing in the game?

If you have a number of saves, which are not pbem, maybe you can post them so that the dev's can say whether this is a bug / not ... or other interested ppl (such as myself could have a look)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: pompack

Scenario 1, playing Japan

In 41 days, my resource stockpile (per WitP staff) has been reduced from 7,322,400 to 6,582,211 which is an average of 18k per day. If I look at my resource centers, LI and HI I should be running between -2500/day (7 dec 41) and +980/day (17 Jan 42) with about 20k captured. I double checked WitP Staff and it seems to be calculating everything correctly yet the WitP Staff Resource History Plot also shows a daily loss in excess of 10k except for the days when resources were captured.

I seem to have misplaced about 700k resources. Does anyone have any ideas?

Is Shimonosheki (sp?) having problems sharing? Other posters have said that this city, for unknown reasons likes hoarding resources and should not be the terminus of supply deliveries.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Someone else reported a similar problem in an AAR, I don't remember who, but the issue was never fully resolved iirc. Are the numbers consistent with what you are seeing in the game?

If you have a number of saves, which are not pbem, maybe you can post them so that the dev's can say whether this is a bug / not ... or other interested ppl (such as myself could have a look)

The numbers are very consistent. The WitPStaff numbers for resource use and resource production are exactly what I get with a pencil and paper ([:D]). As the screenshot shows, the green line (which I understand is simply the difference between the old and new "stored" value) indicates a consistent loss of over 10k per day. The difference between current and initial resource stockpile from the Industry/Resource Availability Report shows less in the stockpile, but the diference between that number and the WitPStaff number is consistent with the amount currently loaded onto ships.

I keep the last seven days saved, but it is a PBEM

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: pompack

Scenario 1, playing Japan

In 41 days, my resource stockpile (per WitP staff) has been reduced from 7,322,400 to 6,582,211 which is an average of 18k per day. If I look at my resource centers, LI and HI I should be running between -2500/day (7 dec 41) and +980/day (17 Jan 42) with about 20k captured. I double checked WitP Staff and it seems to be calculating everything correctly yet the WitP Staff Resource History Plot also shows a daily loss in excess of 10k except for the days when resources were captured.

I seem to have misplaced about 700k resources. Does anyone have any ideas?

Is Shimonosheki (sp?) having problems sharing? Other posters have said that this city, for unknown reasons likes hoarding resources and should not be the terminus of supply deliveries.

Shimoneoskdasl;kfjasdlkf (or whatever [:)]) has it's usual problem, but I have not seen the total to above about 920k. Since it only produces 18k/day it does not seem to be overflowing on a daily basis.

[Rising-Sun]

That odd, could it be something to do with spoilage running in the background?

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

That odd, could it be something to do with spoilage running in the background?

The only spoilage there should be for resources is wastage from overland travel. The manual is not explict in what this wastage is, but it does state that it does not exceed 20% of the resources transported.

If that is what is going on here, it looks like it just may be very close to 20% of the resources transported overland (about 75k or nearly 30% of the total)

[erstad]

Dunno if this will get to your total loss, but
1) The lossage due to overland transport has already been mentioned. This appears to be non-negligible.

2) Are you sure you're collecting all the resources? I've noticed that sometimes the island bases don't add any more if they are at something like 5 (or was it 10?) days of production. Are you shipping in from (from memory) Amani, Naha, and that little base off the NW coast of Japan? Also any bases you've conquered, the little ones off sumatra, the one across from singapore, ocean, nauru, etc.?

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: erstad

Dunno if this will get to your total loss, but
1) The lossage due to overland transport has already been mentioned. This appears to be non-negligible.

2) Are you sure you're collecting all the resources? I've noticed that sometimes the island bases don't add any more if they are at something like 5 (or was it 10?) days of production. Are you shipping in from (from memory) Amani, Naha, and that little base off the NW coast of Japan? Also any bases you've conquered, the little ones off sumatra, the one across from singapore, ocean, nauru, etc.?

This is looking at the TOTAL stockpile, not just the portion that is recovered to the Home Islands. I it were piling up somewhere, it would still show up in the total. This is looking at the total decreasing.

[pad152]

You may want to look at this under WITP tracker for AE to see if you can tell where the difference is.

[Jim D Burns]

Once a base that produces resources or oil reaches a certain stockpile level, I think it stops producing until stockpile levels at the base get reduced. In other words you can only store so much at a given base before production gets turned off.

I’m not sure what the exact production cutoff level is, maybe 10 or 20 x production. Or maybe the stockpile level is tied to the base size itself like supply spoilage is, I’m not sure. But I think that may be your problem.

Jim

[Sharkosaurus rex]

I agree with Jim. In my PBEM game it is early March 42 and as an Allied player I see heaps of bases (and islands) that should have thousands of resources on them as I haven't moved any off, but they seemed capped at 100 times their production- so a 20 resource site maxxes out at 2000 in storage. So the Japs might be missing out on some potential production if they wait too long to capture the bases and move the stuff away. By turn 100 a resource site should have 20x20x100= 4000, but none of them seem to have that.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Once a base that produces resources or oil reaches a certain stockpile level, I think it stops producing until stockpile levels at the base get reduced. In other words you can only store so much at a given base before production gets turned off.

I’m not sure what the exact production cutoff level is, maybe 10 or 20 x production. Or maybe the stockpile level is tied to the base size itself like supply spoilage is, I’m not sure. But I think that may be your problem.

Jim

Jim, I don't think that's it. The effect starts at day 1 at a level of about 14k per day and stays pretty constant. Note that a 20 resource center base produces 400 per day. Let's look at several cases for 7 dec 41

Assume 100 days production is the cap: 20 resource points would be above that cap for 400 per day- insufficient

Assume 50 days production is the cap: 100 resource points would be above that cap for 2000 per day- insuficient

Assume 30 days production is the cap: 2310 resource points woudl be above that cap for 46200 per day- 3X too many

So if there is a cap, it is between 30 and 50 days production or there would not be sufficient loss on day 1. However the loss stays nearly constant for at least 45 days, varying bewteen 14k and about 10k. While I have no proof, I think that a cap that low would produce widely varying changes on a weekly basis (or faster)

The more I look at it, the more I think that it is wastage from overland travel. All the manual says about wastage is that it does not exceed 20% of the resources transported by rail/road. If it is indeed 20% for more than about five hexes, only 70k would need to move to produce a wastage of 14k. A quick count gives about 50k per day moving that far on the mainland and who knows how much more shuffling among the cities of the Home Islands. Another consideration in favor of transportation wastage instead of capping as a mechanism is the relatively constant value for the unexplained loss; I would not expect much variation on transportation since it is primarily a function of fixed geography.

[vaned74]

It can be a large part of the problem.  Before China stopped our game, Khyberbill and I were in Nov, 1942.  I can tell you that the cap on stockpiling at many of the smaller sites is 100x the resource center total - in other words, 5 days, of production.  I have no idea what the trigger is for stopping storage or how it is determined.  But, as further examples -
Amami Oshima can store way more than 2,000 resources but many sites in the Phillippines cannot.  I think it may be related to whether or not the base was Allied at game start - in which case this is a design feature to keep huge piles of resources stockpiling at bases under Allied control and then captured by the Japanese.  Unfortunately, it also appears to be a bug, as it doesn't get turned off once the base is captured by the Japanese.

Other sites seem to be able to store more resources - e.g. Macassar in Celebes can store quite a bit more than 100x the resource center total - but, there is a cap.  Same thing for Balikapan.  I think it tops out at 12,000 or 18,000 resources even though it has no inherent resource production (it draws them from the base about 200 miles to the southwest along the road - production 60 - which can only store 6,000 resources max).

If you own a lot of these small bases you could very easily be losing 10,000 to 20,000 resources a day because of this 'feature'.  Celebes alone is 60 resources so that is 1,200/day - another 1,200 in Borneo and another 3,000 or so in the small Phillippine islands.

Also, Shimonoseki is not the only problem.  I have had several cities hit 999,999 resources at one time or another - these include also Iwaki and Hirosaki in the home islands.

By the way, be careful to watch some of your home island cities.  If you poke the little get supplies button and forget some of these will go to 999,999 supplies and keep drawing supply.  All supply drawn after that is lost and the city continues to dry supply beyond the 999,999.  I have discovered this crappy little gem at the expense of I estimate about 400,000 tons of supplies thus far.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex
20x20x100= 4000

You're missing a 0, that should read 40,000. [:-] [:D]

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: pompack
Jim, I don't think that's it. The effect starts at day 1 at a level of about 14k per day and stays pretty constant.

You are probably right, at least partially. I still think you may be counting on production at bases that have stopped producing due to stockpile levels reaching a cap. Of course I have no idea if an inland base that is topped off at max stockpile level still produces and pushes resources all on the same turn, or if the base stops producing period until some stuff gets sucked away and the base goes below stockpile levels.

But the only way to be sure would be to track every base on map over a period of days/weeks and try and figure out where the stuff is moving, when it gets moved, and how much is getting lost to spoilage just from the moves.

Jim

Edit: There may be something wrong with WitpStaff, I see the estimated month and yearly usage numbers are the same in your screenshot, and they're both just 15 points higher than the daily use number (at least I think it's supposed to be a daily number, though the number displayed seems more like a monthly figure). And the negative 14k is for a 6 day average gain column, even though the daily column reads a gain of 980 and the reach is infinite. The numbers just seem a bit weird, maybe staff should be double checked to make sure it's working as it should.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: vaned74

It can be a large part of the problem.  Before China stopped our game, Khyberbill and I were in Nov, 1942.  I can tell you that the cap on stockpiling at many of the smaller sites is 100x the resource center total - in other words, 5 days, of production.  I have no idea what the trigger is for stopping storage or how it is determined.  But, as further examples -
Amami Oshima can store way more than 2,000 resources but many sites in the Phillippines cannot.  I think it may be related to whether or not the base was Allied at game start - in which case this is a design feature to keep huge piles of resources stockpiling at bases under Allied control and then captured by the Japanese.  Unfortunately, it also appears to be a bug, as it doesn't get turned off once the base is captured by the Japanese.

Other sites seem to be able to store more resources - e.g. Macassar in Celebes can store quite a bit more than 100x the resource center total - but, there is a cap.  Same thing for Balikapan.  I think it tops out at 12,000 or 18,000 resources even though it has no inherent resource production (it draws them from the base about 200 miles to the southwest along the road - production 60 - which can only store 6,000 resources max).

If you own a lot of these small bases you could very easily be losing 10,000 to 20,000 resources a day because of this 'feature'.  Celebes alone is 60 resources so that is 1,200/day - another 1,200 in Borneo and another 3,000 or so in the small Phillippine islands.

Also, Shimonoseki is not the only problem.  I have had several cities hit 999,999 resources at one time or another - these include also Iwaki and Hirosaki in the home islands.

By the way, be careful to watch some of your home island cities.  If you poke the little get supplies button and forget some of these will go to 999,999 supplies and keep drawing supply.  All supply drawn after that is lost and the city continues to dry supply beyond the 999,999.  I have discovered this crappy little gem at the expense of I estimate about 400,000 tons of supplies thus far.

Vaned, really interesting and worth some testing tomorrow ... if it is a bug as you suggest then I hope we can collectively provide some data and get this mess cleared up... it is hard enough juggling the Res paradigm.

[edit]Jim: But the only way to be sure would be to track every base on map over a period of days/weeks and try and figure out where the stuff is moving, when it gets moved, and how much is getting lost to spoilage just from the moves.

I'll look to do this via Tracker, but honestly, I've never seen this problem in any of my test games, so I'll have to find the conditions that make this so ...

[Sharkosaurus rex]

Oops your right. It's hard to type under the ssea with phins.
So that makes it worse: 20x20x100= 40,000 should be on the bases but only 2000 are stored there. So Japan is missing out big time if they don't grab the bases early.

[Sharkosaurus rex]

Here is my homework.
turn is march 17 42=101 days

city resource stored port/air
Billiton 20 2100 2/0
Suva 5 525 4/5
Christmas 20 2100 3/1
Hilo 20 2100 3/1
P Harbour 40 16540 8/10
Juneau 20 2100 3/1
P George 20 400 0/2
Kamloops 20 400 0/2
Calgary 120 4055 0/4
Nelson 200 4000 0/4
Spokane 80 3521 0/6
Vancouver 40 1884 6/4
Reana 20 883 0/6
Edmonton 140 4431 0/7

Darwin 20 2100 3/3
Perth 60 4858 5/5
Kalgoorlie 120 2400 0/1
Whyalla 200 4000 2/1
Adelaide 60 20986 5/4
Broken Hill 120 8400 0/1
Mildura 20 400 0/1
Geelong 20 1952 1/3
Portsea 20 400 1/2
Sale 200 4000 2/2
Melbourne 100 7885 8/8
Wagga wag 20 400 0/4
Burnie zero 13723 3/1
Launceton 20 1800 2/1
Hobart 40 16493 4/4
Queenstown 50 5059 2/0
Canberra 20 400 0/4
Bathhurst 20 400 0/1
P Kembla 170 19775 3/3
Sydney 100 18178 9/8
Newscastle 440 22094 4/4
Tamworth 20 400 0/2
Brisbane 60 9945 5/5
Bundaburg 20 1200 2/1
Bowen zero 7520 1/0
Townsville 20 400 3/5
Cains 20 800 2/2
Cloncurry 400 8000 0/1

All the bases in PI and DIE are captured except, but Jap units have been here for a while=10+ turns
Batavia 60 113 6/4
Soerabaja 80 2344 7/4

India most of the cities with 20 resources and no light industry just have 400 stored resources
Calcutta 60 8261 5/5
Asansol 600 12941 0/1
didn't record other cities butcan if needed.

Most NZ cities with 20 resources only had 400 stored.

I didn't do China as most of their cities with reosources also have light industry.

I haven't moved any resources out of or to these bases.

hope it all lines up right.
all the spaces are missing!

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Edit: There may be something wrong with WitpStaff, I see the estimated month and yearly usage numbers are the same in your screenshot, and they're both just 15 points higher than the daily use number (at least I think it's supposed to be a daily number, though the number displayed seems more like a monthly figure). And the negative 14k is for a 6 day average gain column, even though the daily column reads a gain of 980 and the reach is infinite. The numbers just seem a bit weird, maybe staff should be double checked to make sure it's working as it should.

That part is easy. The "est. use" is computed from the # of HI and LI that are turn ON; the "Est. prod" is computed from the number of resource center points. The "Est. Gain" is the difference between the two. The "est reach" tells how long the "est. gain" (if negative) will take to exhaust the "stored". The "6d Avggain" is the six day average of the differences between successive "stored" values. The 1 month and 1 year estimates are the same as the 'est. use" because I have no factories under repair.

Thus the fact that the "est gain" bears no relationship to the "6d avggain" is indicating that there are resource losses that are not related to resource use by HI or LI.