my terrible USN dive-bombers

[mariandavid]

I complained loudly (to myself it being an AI game) when a 3 carrier strike with just DB failed even to dent an enemy task force of BB's and CA's. Naturally I also blamed the developers of AI.

Then got about two-thirds through the new book by Peter C. Smith (Midway: Dauntless Victory) and documented a rare totally comparable event. The KB attack on the CA's Cornwall and Devonshire vs the USN attack against the Mikuma and Mogami. Result was that the IJN scored an 88% hit rate, the USN a 27.5% rate. Conditions were identical save that the RN cruisers were faster (25 to 14 knts) and had better deck armour. Assuming that aircraft/pilot courage and dedication etc were basically identical the results showed the extreme importance of longer and better training.

Incidentally Smith points out that the far better result achieved against the CV's previously was the result of yet another self-inflicted piece of bad luck by the Japanese. The three carriers had turned into wind to launch at the very moment the USN pilots had started their dive. This meant that they did not have to deal with drift, angle or cross-wind allowance.

[Bradley7735]

There's definitely something wrong with my SBD's. They are getting a 1 in 20 hit rate vs BB's. I can't remember the last time they hit a small warship (not counting merchants).

Heck, my TBF's get about 3 times the hit rates that my SBD's get.

The AI's Val's are getting pretty historical results vs my ships. I've reguarly seen flights of 4 get 2 hits on DD's.

[Fishbed]

The problem is with your TBFs (and "his" Kates for what it matters), not the dive bombers - Dauntless, to my opinion, hit their target about right so far, at least in the Guad scenario. Although they have hard time hitting 30 knots targets, they still managed to hit CLs and AKs on a regulary basis. Killed the Shokaku with one sound 1000lbs too.

The Val hit rate (with high 80s XP pilots) is abysmal though, they are nearly useless, and I really don't know why...

But I am interested in your "Val hitting DDs" thing - do you have CRs and/or screenies?

[Lecivius]

I don't have the reports myself (I'm at work), but I've seen Val's getting some serious hits on DD's myself early to mid '42.

[FatR]

While my play experience is very limited, compared to other people on this forum, I saw many times, that luck plays an important role in AE, and the range of results can be very big, from CarDiv5 fighting off a large Allied strike mostly with flak, to Devastators breaking through during an ecounter of a single Allied carrier with the entire KB on the route from PH and getting two hits (with bombs, even).

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

The problem is with your TBFs (and "his" Kates for what it matters), not the dive bombers - Dauntless, to my opinion, hit their target about right so far, at least in the Guad scenario. Although they have hard time hitting 30 knots targets, they still managed to hit CLs and AKs on a regulary basis. Killed the Shokaku with one sound 1000lbs too.

The Val hit rate (with high 80s XP pilots) is abysmal though, they are nearly useless, and I really don't know why...

But I am interested in your "Val hitting DDs" thing - do you have CRs and/or screenies?

I'm not sure what the issue is. I'm guessing that the AI has an advantage to their hit rate (although, I'm playing on easy level.) The Val's I'm facing are not 80's pilots. They've all been destroyed 2-3 times now, so they should be at 40ish exp. My TBF's get decent hit's with their torpedoes. I know there's an issue with TB's using bombs to great effect, but I keep my TBF's on short range (within F4F range, anyway).

I really only have a problem with my SBD hit rate. A full flight of 18 unmolested SBD's will usually not get a single hit on a CV, CVL or BB. A full flight of 15 TBF's will usually get 2-3 hits on those same ships. If I'm lucky, the TBF's will attack first, hitting and slowing down the target, which vastly improves the hit rates of the SBD's. But, I'm not usually lucky. It generally takes 2-3 US CV's to sink a Japanese CV or CVL. I avoid facing more than 1 AI CV at a time.

The AI's TB's and DB's will generally get pretty good results (I think historical results), even though I've decimated all of the AI's air groups several times. I like that the AI will still have good planes/pilots even though I slaughter them from time to time. It makes the game more fun.

[IndyShark]

Have you checked you squadron leader? Look for one with good aggression and leadership skills

[John Lansford]

Vals are DD killers in my CG; I've lost over a dozen British/Dutch DD's to land based Vals out of the DEI trying to resupply Timor, and now there's a squadron of them at Buna menacing my PM supply TF's.
 
However, my CV based DB's are deadly against the AI's warships.  I've sunk several BB's and CA's with 1000 lb bombs, not to mention transports and cargo ships using the Dauntlesses.  Yamato took a ton of 1000 lb bombs and a torpedo off of Milne Bay and is listed on the 'sunk' list but I'm not so sure about that one.  The others have been on the list for some time now though.
 
What bugs me is the accuracy of the torpedo bombers carrying bombs.  Both my Avengers (good) and Kates (bad) hit ships at sea more often than the DB's do when they're using 500 lb bombs!

[xj900uk]

Interestingly the Val strike that sunk the Hermes in April '42 had an astonishing 85-90% hit rate, the British carrier simply disappeared under the carpet of bombs & went down in about 10 minutes...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

What bugs me is the accuracy of the torpedo bombers carrying bombs.  Both my Avengers (good) and Kates (bad) hit ships at sea more often than the DB's do when they're using 500 lb bombs!

don't forget the Vildebeestes and Swordfish. [:D]

[John Lansford]

I figure the Swordfish and Vildebeests are just putting the planes into glide mode and ease right over the top of the ships before dropping their bombs in order to get such good hit rates...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: mariandavid


Then got about two-thirds through the new book by Peter C. Smith (Midway: Dauntless Victory) and documented a rare totally comparable event. The KB attack on the CA's Cornwall and Devonshire vs the USN attack against the Mikuma and Mogami. Result was that the IJN scored an 88% hit rate, the USN a 27.5% rate. Conditions were identical save that the RN cruisers were faster (25 to 14 knts) and had better deck armour. Assuming that aircraft/pilot courage and dedication etc were basically identical the results showed the extreme importance of longer and better training.

Wrong lesson I think. USN philosophy was lots of pilots who were good enough. IJN philosophy was a very few pilots who were superb. One of those two philosophies is good for winning a war, another for a few battles...Now if you could win the war in a few battles, as Japan believed, the "extreme importance of longer and better training" on the IJN scale may have worked...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: mariandavid

Incidentally Smith points out that the far better result achieved against the CV's previously was the result of yet another self-inflicted piece of bad luck by the Japanese. The three carriers had turned into wind to launch at the very moment the USN pilots had started their dive. This meant that they did not have to deal with drift, angle or cross-wind allowance.

Going from memory, but I think this is a myth. I need to go back and look at Parshall, but the IJN carriers had not even begun spotting a strike at the time the end came (look at the gun camera pictures, there are no aircraft spotted forward). They had been reinforcing and cycling their CAP for the past hour as the various attacks developed. They did not cycle their CAP as a taskforce, nor were they even close to being ready to launch a strike, so there is no reason for all the CVs to have turned into the wind.

USN dive bomber pilots consistently demonstrated they were able to hit enemy shipping. The had no trouble with poor Shoho and did OK against Shokaku at Coral Sea. They missed the BBs and had initial trouble with the CAs at Midway, but I suspect this may have reflected the most experienced leaders taking the high priority targets (i.e the CVs).

[jackyo123]

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735





I really only have a problem with my SBD hit rate. A full flight of 18 unmolested SBD's will usually not get a single hit on a CV, CVL or BB. A full flight of 15 TBF's will usually get 2-3 hits on those same ships. If I'm lucky, the TBF's will attack first, hitting and slowing down the target, which vastly improves the hit rates of the SBD's. But, I'm not usually lucky. It generally takes 2-3 US CV's to sink a Japanese CV or CVL. I avoid facing more than 1 AI CV at a time.

I had similar problems with my SBD's until the experience level hit around 70. At that point, their bombing accuracy increased to the point that a group of 12 will always hit something, and often 2 or 3 hits are scored. My SBD's at exp 59 cant hit anything, and have a bomb accuracy of something like 2%.

I had one very experienced group (73 maybe?) that was down 5 planes, but i didnt want to dilute them with replacments in the 30's and 40's, and then have to spend 6 months training. And I am glad i did this. This group of 9 will always get a hit, even on fast moving destroyers.

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: IndyShark

Have you checked you squadron leader? Look for one with good aggression and leadership skills

Is Air skill not also important?