Leaders

[Andy Mac]

And thats the reason I will never be involved in doing leaders for a european theatre game
 
Monty/Patton/Bradley/Alexander/Rommel
 
Urrrrghhh no thanks thats one fight I can do without

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

And thats the reason I will never be involved in doing leaders for a european theatre game

Monty/Patton/Bradley/Alexander/Rommel

Urrrrghhh no thanks thats one fight I can do without

or Manstein vs Zhukov?

[Andy Mac]

Exactly why bother with the grief

[Local Yokel]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace



I seem to recall the German destoyers being out (or nearly out) of fuel and thus trapped in Narvik. I remember someone describing the action as shooting fish in a barrel.

Some of them were, indeed. But then you must be pretty good at satellite vision in 1940 to be damn sure about what was waiting for him in the fjord - especially with U-booten in the vicinity. If it hadn't been for the Warspite swordfish seaplane, HMS Warspite could have been the fish of the said barrel instead...

Indeed. I doubt Crutchley was privy to the Kriegsmarine's logistical issues when he was pondering charging in. I would have thought a battleship in a fjord would be a torpedo magnet. If Warspite had been torpedoed he'd have gone down in history as a hyperaggressive idiot probably.

He may well not be all that competent as admiral, he didn't seem all that suited to high command. But he was not cautious. [;)]

Worth noting that at 2nd Narvik Crutchley occupied a relatively lowly post as Captain of Warspite. V Adm Whitworth was flying his flag in Warspite and was OTC for that action. But even he was following orders from the Admiralty. I don't have much quarrel with those orders: the situation at Narvik was such that the risks involved in sending in a battleship were acceptable, and if you've decided to whack 'em, best to do it with the biggest stick available. OTOH the Admiralty's orders to Whitworth contain the apparently hilarious instruction that he was to lob a single depth charge into any inlet/fjord suspected of harbouring a U-boat!

To get a better feel for Crutchley you could do worse than look at his WW1 record. He fought at Jutland, and evidently made such a strong impression on Sir Roger Keyes as to be handpicked by him for a role in the 1918 Zeebrugge-Ostend raids. Crutchley was, I think, no more than a lieutenant at that stage, but had to take over command of cruiser Vindictive at Ostend 2 after her captain and 1st Lieutenant became casualties, and was awarded the Victoria Cross for the part he played. That is not a decoration that is lightly awarded.

I don't know enough of the details of Savo to be sure, but suspect that Crutchley is open to criticism for a failure to ensure that someone stepped into his shoes as acting commander of the southern cruiser force whilst he was absent at the conference aboard HMAS Australia. Yet the Savo debacle apparently did not do terminal damage to his career, as I understand he retained a seagoing command for much of the rest of the war. In game terms I think he might warrant high aggression, medium-high naval and medium-low skill ratings.

[Arnhem44]

With reference to the tin cans of Taffy 3 and all who served on them, forgive me if they're already in there, I trawled Tracker a couple of times.

LCDR Ernest E. Evans commanding DD-557 USS Johnston, conferred MoH for his actions, can't find him in the database or as CO of Johnston, he was her first and only captain
LCDR Robert W. Copeland commanding DE-413 USS Copeland, can't find him in the database either
CDR Leon S Kintberger commanding DD-533 USS Hoel (ID:22467), given what's known of the his and Hoel's actions during the battle should his stats be given a relook? Anyone who charges down 3 squadrons worth of heavies in a DD has got to rate better than Naval 53 among other things.
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[Admiral Scott]

I hope any leader database changes will be in the new patch.

I would hate to start a new game without them.

[Andy Mac]

As I said this is a patch 3 issue if then no promises

[Admiral Scott]

What would happen if a game started with patch 2, gets leader changes from a third patch?

Will this cause problems with the game started after patch 2?

Will I have to restart after patch 3?

Also, how long does it take to change a few values on a handfull of leaders in the database?
Cant you release a mini patch soon after patch 2?

[Andy Mac]

Not sure to be honest I suspect leader changes won't take effect.

But there is no need to restart for something as minor as a few leader changes

Not doing a mini patch and I said up fornt this will be a patch 3 item as I need to get agreement from other team members I dont unilaterally control the leader file

Sorry

Andy

[Admiral Scott]

Before the official patch 2 comes out, cant you make a quick few database changes to the leaders in question?

They cant cause any new bugs, correct?

[Andy Mac]

Admiral sorry I have been pretty consistent in saying this is a patch 3 item sorry

[Admiral Scott]

When is patch 3 scheduled to be released, or likely to be done by?

[Andy Mac]

Not got a clue Admiral Scott sorry
 
Just to refer to the comment I made on post 1 of this thread
 
"OK guys I tell you what a few threads have commented that some leaders looks wrong.

For Patch 3 maybe and I am not promising if there is a leader you disagree with the ratings on write him down with his database number and a short reason why he has is to low or high and I will promise to look at the thread.

I cannot guarantee that we will take any changes proposed but I promise I Will look at the list.

So tell me Leader Number/Name/Current ratings and why you think they are wrong with any proposd changes and we will see "

 

[mariandavid]

Back to an earlier thread. Buckmaster it seems was questionable: am reading the latest book by Peter C Smith on Midway and he cites for example that Thatch complained that Buckmaster kept too many fighters back to protect his ship instead of detailing them to the strike. A strange incident took place after the Yorktown sank -when Buckmaster kept insisting that the destroyer he was in sail again and again through the wreckage!
 
On Stillwell - I think his inspiration number should be minimal - he is one of the US Army commanders whose men seemed to positively hate him with an utter passion. There is a wonderful story about one of the Marauder officers deliberately walking with him into the known arc of a Japanese post in the hope that Stilwell would be hit, regardless of what happened to him!  The only other general I heard comparable attitudes of was Patton (off topic). 

[bush]

Andy,

Have you used/seen United States Marine Corp Generals of World War II by George B. Clark? Nice little reference, but very expensive. As I looked up several leaders they sure do not seem to correlate well between AE and this book.

Mike

[Andy Mac]

I didnt do the USMC Leaders

For tha avoidance of doubt we took the stock leader and then I added a few RN/RAF/British/Aus and NZ HQ level leqaders that were missing and did a review of their stats

but others did japan and US

We did not do a comrehensive scrub so most leaders will be the same as stock

[Blackhorse]

I'm to blame for USMC and US Army leader ratings.*

I put some time and effort into fixing (what I perceived) as the most egregious errors in stock. In the interests of time I focused primarily on the Division and HQs commanders, although a few other noteworthy individuals (e.g. "Chesty" Puller; Marine Raider and Presidential son LTC James Roosevelt) were added or tweaked as well.

Several US Army divison commanders (including, most controversially, Ralph Smith) were relieved of command. I lowered most of their ratings from stock.

In general, most US Army leaders will have low aggression compared to Marine leaders. That reflects doctrinal differences -- and is primarily what led to Ralph Smith being relieved by the Marine's 'Howling Mad' Smith. MacArthur has value as one of the few senior US Army commanders with a high aggression rating. For all his faults, few other senior Army generals would have had the gumption or the ability to conduct his 1943-44 offensives on what was - for Americans - a logistical shoestring.

I am a big Stilwell fan. I think he was a great combat commander, and, like MacArthur, one of the few naturally aggressive US Army senior leaders in the Pacific. But Stilwell was miscast in a quasi-diplomatic role. He managed to alienate Chiang, Chennault and most of the British hierarchy in CBI. Lacking US forces of his own to command, to be effective Stilwell had to secure cooperation from the Chinese and the Brits -- and he failed to do so. To cite just one example, had Stilwell been more skilled in personally diplomacy Chiang might have given him authority to directly command the Chinese troops in Burma, which in turn would have made Stilwell more effective. One British General called him, "the best three-star company commander in the theatre". I reflected all this by reducing Stilwell's 'Admin' rating -- if you think there is a better way to reflect this shortcoming of "Vinegar Joe" I'm open to it.

Buckner's ratings went up from his Percival-esque level in stock -- IMHO, he was competent, but with low aggression.

While I have opinions on the qualities of several Generals, and reasons for the ratings, I also have a thick skin, and I'm not emotionally invested in promoting the reputation of any of them. I welcome questions and suggestions on how to improve the ratings.




* = and for adding the fictional Quinton McHale to the database. "McHale's Navy" was a 1960s US television comedy starring Ernest Borgnine as a PT-boat commander in the Solomons in WWII.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Andy,

Have you used/seen United States Marine Corp Generals of World War II by George B. Clark? Nice little reference, but very expensive. As I looked up several leaders they sure do not seem to correlate well between AE and this book.

Mike

I'd be especially interested to know where you think Clark's assessment of USMC generals ought to lead to different ratings in AE. Feel free to PM me, or to post here. Thanks.

[Andy Mac]

Any more for any more not quite closing it down but if you want your best worst or inbetweeney reviewed now is the time to get them on the list even if its just a leader thats currently in as a default set of stats you want randomised

[Cerion]

A spelling error: I think that 3705 "Kurita, Takao" should be "Kurita, TAKEO".