Barges and Mini Subs, what to do with them?

[findmeifyoucan]

I would be interested in knowing what other Japanese players think the best thing to do with these units and the most productive to the cause?

[Feltan]

Barges have utility in the Solomons and Marshals and to a lesser extent the Philippenes. Think short leg transport. Think expendable. When allied air power becomes crushing, submarines and barges are about all that will get through to some bases.

Mini-subs. This is a sore point with me. Perhaps only me. However, I think they are virtually useless and a poor use of limited development resources for AE. I think much more influential aspects of the war could have been included or done better. Anyway, other than Pearl Harbor, I don't use them or think they are worth the hassle. Mini-subs are excess chrome on a vehicle that didn't need more chrome.

Regards,
Feltan

[bspeer]

Got lucky at PH and my minis hit two BBs!

[Q-Ball]

Midgets could be used later as base defense I suppose.....they do carry torps.

If a large American fleet shows up, a single torp hit on something though isn't going to do anything

They are probably like real life: Not worth the effort.

[OldCanuck]

Don't forget the decisive "battle of Sydney", where a minisub sank a ferryboat.

[Rob Brennan UK]

Damn AI Mini sub attacked and hit the Enterprise in Sydney harbor !!! .. they are not useless imo. Looking historically they were a waste of resources but as you have them in game and from what i see the parent sub seems to get away quite happily, might as well use them as 'offensive one shot mines' [;)]

[rockmedic109]

I'm an unabashed AFB.  The only thing I do with Mini-Subs and Barges.

[stuman]

I have tried using mini-subs 14 times now gainst the AI in a current game. They have hit nothing yet.[:)] Just for the hell of it I am going to keep trying until they finally hit something and then stop.

[findmeifyoucan]

Yeah, after looking at their specs I have to agree that the Mini-Subs are close to useless. Just one torpedo? Wow, better make them count. LOL

Strength in numbers I guess.

[findmeifyoucan]

Personally I think I'd rather have one regular Sub that 10 Mini-Subs.

[pompack]

Per Kaigun, the IJN looked on the minisubs as "mobil minefields".

In the original plan for the "Decisive Battle" of the Pacific War, the high speed minelayers were to lay minefields in the open ocean ahead of the advancing US battleline (and that is the reason Japan has so many high speed minelayers and so few mines- they were only expected to be used once). Once the minedfield was in place destroyers escorted by heavy and light cruisers were to attack from both flanks.

Eventually it was determined that it was really hard to lay minefields of the required density unless the US battleline declined to maneuver in spite of the flank torpedo attacks. The solution was the minisub. The concept was that they would be launched by surface and submarine kaiten carriers directly in the path of the approaching US battleline. The subs had enough speed and endurance to shift to one side or the other to stay in front of the US fleet.

I guess a couple of dozen minisubs is an improvement over a minefield laid in the open sea about 100 miles from an approaching fleet (about the difference between slim and none [:D])

[stuman]

I have made 16 mini sub attacks now. I have still not hit a thing. It is getting hard to find volunteers [:D]

[FatR]

Mini-subs in PH attack manage to score a hit on one of battleship around 40% of the time, in my experience. Maybe less often if the historical first turn is off. (In RL mini-subs managed to put Ramillies out of action for more than a year, and there is a possibility that one of them put a torpedo in West Wirginia during PH attack.) In my current campaign against AI one of them not only launched a successful attack, but survived and was hauled back to Kwajalein ))). I don't plan to use them for other attacks. If a port is unprotected, it's easier to just send a normal sub in, if it has minefields, the chances are too low anyway. If AE does model harbor defences that made mini-subs better harbor infiltrators than normal subs, I haven't noticed anything like that. As halting their production is not worth the hassle, I'll probably put them on base defense later in the war. They probably won't hit anything, never mind not anything important, but, again, savings from not building them are so miniscule, that

[Shilka]

I just got 3 minisub hits in my PH, all hit West-Virginia

The air strike was pretty crappy though.

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Barges have utility in the Solomons and Marshals and to a lesser extent the Philippenes. Think short leg transport. Think expendable. When allied air power becomes crushing, submarines and barges are about all that will get through to some bases.

Mini-subs. This is a sore point with me. Perhaps only me. However, I think they are virtually useless and a poor use of limited development resources for AE. I think much more influential aspects of the war could have been included or done better. Anyway, other than Pearl Harbor, I don't use them or think they are worth the hassle. Mini-subs are excess chrome on a vehicle that didn't need more chrome.

Regards,
Feltan

Feltan Nooooo! Please say it ain't so! I LOVE my mini subs - that they have yet to make a sucessful attack doesn't bother me at all. My Boys gave all for the Team....

Mac

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Feltan Nooooo! Please say it ain't so! I LOVE my mini subs - that they have yet to make a sucessful attack doesn't bother me at all. My Boys gave all for the Team....

Mac

Mac,

I am sure someone (or perhaps several people) on the development team had passion about mini-subs. However, in the war they sank a mere handful of ships -- IIRC, you can count on one hand the number of ships they sank. I would venture to guess that bad weather sank/damaged more Allied ships than Japanese mini subs.

Mines sank hundreds of ships in the Pacific, and the mine aspect of the game is, in my opinion, considerably under represented. Due to the way WITP handled mines, I suspect there was a huge bias against mine warfare for WITPAE. But the pendulum has swung way in the other direction. Mines are, for the most part, simply not a significant factor in the game. Perhaps that makes some people happy, but the mine warfare portion of the game is far from historical for a game that rightly takes some pride in representing history.

Someone has to make decisions during development. Those decisions were made, and a product got delivered. For that we should all be thankful. However, it would seem to me that more critical thought, labor and love should have been spent on mine warfare, and considerably less so on mini subs. Simply the number of hulls put underneath the waves by mines should warrant more careful coverage when you compare the number of hulls that mini subs accounted for.

Just one fan's opinion.

Regards,
Feltan

[Mac Linehan]

Hi, Feltan -

While still a newbie I would have to agree (after forum reading) that mine productin has been significantly curtailed in AE. The good news is that there is always the editor. In an AAR sometime back (Oct?) a player stated that he and his opponent had agreed to edit and really crank up mine prodution for both sides.

I am playing my first email game as the Japanese and intend to squeeze the most out of the limited amount of mines I do have.

As for the mini subs - Some Players (posted in this thread) have had success, most (including me) have not. I just like the historical aspect of this unique weapon. I do understand your point of view...

Was just being humorous when replying to your post.

Mac

[offenseman]

Their is one interesting way to use them that might be useful.  The AI seems to like to undertake small scale invasions of Sakhalin and Erotufu (sp).  Stationing several in those ports might be useful instead of those now rare mines or keeping a Surface warfare TF nearby.  I'll try that in my next vs. AI game if I can get over spending supplies on them...  have to be careful using any resource,oil,fuel,supply as Japan.

[John Lansford]

A minisub torpedoed Arizona in Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41 in my CG, and just recently (8/42) attacked a ship in Noumea harbor to no effect.  I also got a "something is caught in a submarine net" message a few weeks ago game time at Columbo.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: pompack

Per Kaigun, the IJN looked on the minisubs as "mobil minefields".

In the original plan for the "Decisive Battle" of the Pacific War, the high speed minelayers were to lay minefields in the open ocean ahead of the advancing US battleline (and that is the reason Japan has so many high speed minelayers and so few mines- they were only expected to be used once). Once the minedfield was in place destroyers escorted by heavy and light cruisers were to attack from both flanks.

If anyone here hasn't read that book, do so. It's excellent.

The Japanese obsession with minelaying is also a classic case of past battles coloring future perception of what the next war is. Mines were decisive in the Russo-Japanese war, the Russians losing 2 BBs and their best admiral to one, the IJN losing 2 BBs in one incident in another offensive minefield. Thus, the Japanese obsession with offensive minefield laying. Not health IMO.

The Japanese obsession with "outranging the enemy" at least bore some positive fruit