Submarines and targets

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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rtrapasso
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by rtrapasso »

Originally posted by Don Bowen


The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships entry for Tautug credits her with RO-30 on April 26, 1942. Japanese Warships of WWII states RO-30 scrapped post war. Conway All the World's Warships agrees with the scrap in 1947.

Also note that Japanese I-boats with numbers < 100 were renumbered late in the war by adding 100 (I-73 becomming I-173, etc). Most of my sources give the number at time of loss but several use the +100 number.

A web search turned up:
http://www.merriam-press.com/mono_075/m_056.htm
which turns out to be a book for sale but the listing has some interesting data.

Don
After cross-checking references, Blair does state that Tautog sunk RO-30 on 26 April 1942. This is one of the most vivid sub-vs-sub described in his book (p229). According to Blair "En route to the Marshalls, Joe Willingham's Tautog was nearly sunk by a Japanese submarine. At about 10 a.m., on April 26, while proceeding on the surface, Tautog's officer of the deck sighted a periscope "opening out, prepartory to firing." With fine presence of mind, the OOD ordered hard left rudder and called the crew to battle stations. When the stern torpedo tubes came into position, Willingham fired a single torpedo. It either hit or exploded magnetically *above* the Japanese submarine. Willingham flashed a passing patrol plane to investigate. The pilot reported boxes, cushions and other debris. RO-30, a 1,000 ton submarine, was striken from the Japanese navy list."
Now, I thought all this stuff in Blair's book was supposed to be confirmed by JANAC records. However, in searching the date for this incident in Official Chronology USN around this date, there is no mention of said encounter. Normally, this book mentions most piddly little incidents like "submarine attacked by aircraft but sustained no damage". I am not sure what to make of this. However, it is 3 sources to 2 that RO-30 did not get sunk on this date.
In investigating an cross-referencing Silent Victory on this matter, I have found what appear to be several errors - possibly typographical, possibly not. There are several confusing sections regarding I-boat identities. For instance. on page 476, it is stated that the Scamp sunk I-24, however, on page 553, it says Trout sank her, and that Scamp sunk the I-182. (Actually, it appears Scamp really sunk I-168 according to OCUSN and JWWW2 - this was the boat that got the Yorktown). On page 418, I-24 (or possibly I-31) was sunk by destroyers DCs in the Aleutians. Both OCUSN and JWWW2 state that the I-24 was rammed and sunk by PC 487 (or SC 487). SV says I-9 was rammed and sunk - OCUSN and JWWW2 say it was DD Frazier's depth charges that did it. So, there is confusion in Blair's book - disappointing, as I thought it was the definitive reference.
However, you have given me a couple more excellent leads for references. I really like the OCUSN book, but it has no index, so you have to know what dates to look on.
Do you happen to have any good references about Dutch subs? It appears up until the fall of the Dutch East Indies, they were doing significant damage to the IJN, and even continued well into 1944 at least. There is one Dutch sub, the Zwaardvisch (I'm betting that's Swordfish in Dutch) that seems to have wreaked havoc in the Java Sea, even sinking a U-boat U-168 (!!) on 6 Oct 1944 and taking 27 of the crew prisoner (OCUSN p261). I keep running across references to this and some other subs from time to time, but they seem to be largely ignored in the US literature.
Thanks again,
Bob T.
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Don Bowen
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by Don Bowen »

Originally posted by rtrapasso
Do you happen to have any good references about Dutch subs? Thanks again,
Bob T.
Try http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindie ... _subs.html
And http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

Don
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rtrapasso
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by rtrapasso »

I had the www.dutchsub site - which is detailed as to ships, but not organized as to the campaign. The geocities has a nice run down of the brief campaign the Dutch had in 1941 before Soerabaja was taken. However, I was hoping you might know offhand about some book that had more details. I will try to do a search at Amazon - they sometimes turn up stuff in used or out of print books. If anything turns up, I'll mention it.
Bob T.
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rtrapasso
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by rtrapasso »

Originally posted by Don Bowen


The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships entry for Tautug credits her with RO-30 on April 26, 1942. Japanese Warships of WWII states RO-30 scrapped post war. Conway All the World's Warships agrees with the scrap in 1947.

Also note that Japanese I-boats with numbers < 100 were renumbered late in the war by adding 100 (I-73 becomming I-173, etc). Most of my sources give the number at time of loss but several use the +100 number.

A web search turned up:
http://www.merriam-press.com/mono_075/m_056.htm
which turns out to be a book for sale but the listing has some interesting data.

Don
I pursuit of the fate of RO-30, I wrote Col. Robert Hackett, who is listed as a historian for the submarine section of Combinedfleet.com. He replied (promptly):
"I love Clay Blair. His works got me into this hobby, but it's kinda like an axiom I coined in Las Vegas:
"The more you play, the more you lose!" In his (and most authors cases) it's: "The more you write,
the more mistakes you make!"

So Blair et al to the contrary, whatever TAUTOG sank, it wasn't the RO-30. Most books don't even list
her, but according to A. J. Watts, the RO-30 was removed from the Navy List in 1936 and her hulk was
moored at the Otake submarine school during the entire war. She was scrapped 1947-48.

I have seen one source that claimed the I-23 was sunk off Johnston Island on 26 April 1942, which matches
TAUTOG's claimed sinking, but the problem with that is the I-23 went missing two months earlier on 24
February 1942 south of Oahu, Hawaii.

Nobody (other than wreck divers) really has the answers in this business. It's all an educated guess based
on the available facts.

Best,
Bob"

So - who knows what it was... I would like to see the JANAC report sometime, though (better yet, have a copy, preferably as a data base!)

By the way, have you (or anyone) ever seen a sub vs. sub encounter in UV? I have tried to sink I-boats this way after failing with Hunter-Killer groups with DDs, SCs, PCs, AC, etc. I park a sub or two at the reported I-boat position, and nothing seems to happen - even if the I-boat is spotted in the same hex later.

Bob T.
BPRE
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You won!

Post by BPRE »

Do you happen to have any good references about Dutch subs? It appears up until the fall of the Dutch East Indies, they were doing significant damage to the IJN, and even continued well into 1944 at least. There is one
Dutch sub, the Zwaardvisch (I'm betting that's Swordfish in Dutch) that seems to have wreaked havoc in the
Java Sea, even sinking a U-boat U-168 (!!) on 6 Oct 1944 and taking 27 of the crew prisoner (OCUSN p261).


Hi Bob,

You'll win the bet. It does mean Swordfish.

Regards
BPRE
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rtrapasso
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Re: You won!

Post by rtrapasso »

Originally posted by BPRE


Hi Bob,

You'll win the bet. It does mean Swordfish.

Regards
BPRE
Aha! Thanks for the confirmation!

Bob T.
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rtrapasso
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by rtrapasso »

Originally posted by Don Bowen


The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships entry for Tautug credits her with RO-30 on April 26, 1942. Japanese Warships of WWII states RO-30 scrapped post war. Conway All the World's Warships agrees with the scrap in 1947.

Also note that Japanese I-boats with numbers < 100 were renumbered late in the war by adding 100 (I-73 becomming I-173, etc). Most of my sources give the number at time of loss but several use the +100 number.

A web search turned up:
http://www.merriam-press.com/mono_075/m_056.htm
which turns out to be a book for sale but the listing has some interesting data.

Don
As a followup, I actually went ahead and ordered the book in the ad you sent me "Japanese Submarine Losses to Allied Submarines in World War II" by James Milller.

He credits the following actual sinkings of IJN subs in 1942:
1. I-73 by Gudgeon 27 Jan
2. No actual sinking by Gudgeon on 26 April (discredits reports of sinking of I-23, RO-30).
3. I-28 by Tautog 17 May
4. I-64 by Triton 17 May (2 in one day by US subs);
5. I-4 by Seadrogon 21 Dec ("almost certainly").
so actually 4 by US Subs in 1942.

in 1943:
1. no actual sinking by Grayback 2 or 3
Jan (I-18 generally credited)
2. I-168 by Scamp 27 July
3. no actual sinking by Trout on 9 Sept (I-182 generally credited by many sources)
4. I-34 by HMS Taurus 13 Nov (non-US sub)

So... according to this source, only 1 IJN sub sunk by US Subs in 1943.

Curiously, he also says some of the JANAC records disagree with Japanese records in several cases, where people sources say JANAC was supposed to be BASED on Japanese records.

Miller quotes lots of different sources in this monograph - many of them disagree about who sunk what - he uses the best sources available and notes discrepancies.


Bob T.
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Don Bowen
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by Don Bowen »

Originally posted by rtrapasso

As a followup, I actually went ahead and ordered the book in the ad you sent me "Japanese Submarine Losses to Allied Submarines in World War II" by James Milller.

He credits the following actual sinkings of IJN subs in 1942:
1. I-73 by Gudgeon 27 Jan
2. No actual sinking by Gudgeon on 26 April (discredits reports of sinking of I-23, RO-30).
3. I-28 by Tautog 17 May
4. I-64 by Triton 17 May (2 in one day by US subs);
5. I-4 by Seadrogon 21 Dec ("almost certainly").
so actually 4 by US Subs in 1942.

in 1943:
1. no actual sinking by Grayback 2 or 3
Jan (I-18 generally credited)
2. I-168 by Scamp 27 July
3. no actual sinking by Trout on 9 Sept (I-182 generally credited by many sources)
4. I-34 by HMS Taurus 13 Nov (non-US sub)

So... according to this source, only 1 IJN sub sunk by US Subs in 1943.

Curiously, he also says some of the JANAC records disagree with Japanese records in several cases, where people sources say JANAC was supposed to be BASED on Japanese records.

Miller quotes lots of different sources in this monograph - many of them disagree about who sunk what - he uses the best sources available and notes discrepancies.


Bob T.
Very (very very) interesting. Does the book give any information on losses to other causes? Might have to get this one.

Don
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rtrapasso
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Historical Loses of Japanese Submarines

Post by rtrapasso »

Originally posted by Don Bowen

Very (very very) interesting. Does the book give any information on losses to other causes? Might have to get this one.

Don
He mentions some losses due to PT boats, the I-24 ramming, DD attacks some operational losses, but only in relation to IJN subs claimed by US subs. For instance, in the I-4, which he credits to SEADRAGON, he says "Orita and others state that the last transmission was received by I-4 on 21 December. Some sources still credit I-4 to PT-122 at 08-32S, 148-17E off the mouth of the Kumusu River, on 25 Dec 1942. Buckley states. '... object of attack and degree of damage inflicted must still be considered uncertain.'
Actually, PT-122 was credited with sinking I-22 (Commander Chinao Narizawa) immediated after the war, but that claim, also, is very much in doubt."

There is no systemic treatment of causes other than Allied subs. It is 50 pages only, and a very quick read (double spaced, some photos) - it took me only 1/2 hour. There are some photos of Allied and IJN subs.

Bob T.
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