Kamikazes - Some Strange & Some Downright Odd Observations

[bsq]

Working through April 1945 having finally taken Iwo Jima (after some odd AI antics posted elsewhere).

Now trying to soften up Luzon (to help 6th & 8th Armies) and Okinawa/Home Islands (ready to invade Naha).

The AI is throwing everything at me including the kitchen sink.

Unfortunately it's a very a-historic kitchen sink consisting of:

Emily's and Mavis' being used as Kamikazes (not just the odd one, but whole Sqns of them)

Sqns of Betty's being used in the morning as Kamikazes in the morning and any survivors conducting torpedo or bombing raids in the afternoon.

Add to this such anomalies as 24 aircraft being used as Kamikazes having 16 destroyed by the CAP and then having the remaining 8 scoring 20 hits on 20 separate ships!

Then finally having combat results like:

6 Emilys managing to get past a CAP of 300+ fighters and score catastrophic hits on ships with the highest AAA ratings.

Obsolete fighters with a pair of 30/50 kg bombs sinking Iowa class battleships with a single Kamikaze hit (that's right that more than 50 000 tons of ship being sunk by an aircraft at maximum range that itself weighs less than 3 tons).

Basically the whole Kamikaze thing needs to be looked at as does the combat tables that allow for results like a small single seat fighter sinking a battleship when employed as a Kamikaze.

Given the actual effort required in real life to sink things, I should not be seeing things like 'BB New Jersey Kamikaze Hit 1 and is sunk' - it's laughable (as indeed were earlier combat results which had BB's and CV's sunk by single air launched torpedoes or single bombs of less than 100 kg (all of which I have seen - affecting both sides it has to be said) - the only (armoured)capital ship that was doomed by a single hit was PoW (when a torpedo struck it in the only place where a single hit would have that effect).

[Q-Ball]

In WITP, Kamikazes were not at all effective. If any managed to get through UBER CAP, a big if, the hit ratio wasn't that great, and it took several hits to bring down anything larger than a DD or a transport. They were basically a waste IMO, and not the threat that they were IRL.

Your experience is interesting. I think Kamikazes needed to be seriously toned UP for AE, since IRL they sank ALOT of ships, and the USN was very seriously concerned about them. I would like to see more results before concluding they are now too powerful. So far I am glad actually that they are doing real damage, because that is a positive change.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: bsq

Working through April 1945 having finally taken Iwo Jima (after some odd AI antics posted elsewhere).

Now trying to soften up Luzon (to help 6th & 8th Armies) and Okinawa/Home Islands (ready to invade Naha).

The AI is throwing everything at me including the kitchen sink.

Unfortunately it's a very a-historic kitchen sink consisting of:

Emily's and Mavis' being used as Kamikazes (not just the odd one, but whole Sqns of them)

Sqns of Betty's being used in the morning as Kamikazes in the morning and any survivors conducting torpedo or bombing raids in the afternoon.

Add to this such anomalies as 24 aircraft being used as Kamikazes having 16 destroyed by the CAP and then having the remaining 8 scoring 20 hits on 20 separate ships!

Then finally having combat results like:

6 Emilys managing to get past a CAP of 300+ fighters and score catastrophic hits on ships with the highest AAA ratings.

Obsolete fighters with a pair of 30/50 kg bombs sinking Iowa class battleships with a single Kamikaze hit (that's right that more than 50 000 tons of ship being sunk by an aircraft at maximum range that itself weighs less than 3 tons).

Basically the whole Kamikaze thing needs to be looked at as does the combat tables that allow for results like a small single seat fighter sinking a battleship when employed as a Kamikaze.

Given the actual effort required in real life to sink things, I should not be seeing things like 'BB New Jersey Kamikaze Hit 1 and is sunk' - it's laughable (as indeed were earlier combat results which had BB's and CV's sunk by single air launched torpedoes or single bombs of less than 100 kg (all of which I have seen - affecting both sides it has to be said) - the only (armoured)capital ship that was doomed by a single hit was PoW (when a torpedo struck it in the only place where a single hit would have that effect).

No excuses , if this is W.A.D. then this game is garbage.

[John Lansford]

Kamikazes sank nothing larger than a CVE, so you're "they sank a lot of ships" applies only to ships smaller than an escort carrier.  Lethal to DD's and DE's, certainly.  Should they be lethal to CV's and BB's, absolutely not.

[oldman45]

I think there was one that hit a BB on the turret and scratched the paint, does that count

[JohnDillworth]

Is anybody else fascinated by the idea of a squadron of flying boats being used as kamikazes? The visual itself would be awesome![&o]

[SuluSea]

The CVEs being kaiser coffins, built on a transport hull. [8|]

I wish I would have known beforehand that this game would be modeled on the wishes of unadulterated JFB fantasy because I definately wouldn't have bought it.

[Q-Ball]

1 hit sinking Iowa is over the top.

Several CVs though suffered significant hits though, significant enough to put the ship out of action. For CVs in particular, I can see one hit sinking the ship; Franklin after all almost sank from 2 250kg bombs, if they were strapped to a Kamikaze it might have doomed her completely.

To say it's all screwed up based on one guy's e-mail or one sinking of Iowa is premature.

[Cuttlefish]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I think there was one that hit a BB on the turret and scratched the paint, does that count

Here is a "paint-scratcher" for you. 54 men dead, 119 wounded. The ship was in no danger of sinking, true, but I would say that battleships had reason to take kamikazes seriously.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: bsq

Working through April 1945 having finally taken Iwo Jima (after some odd AI antics posted elsewhere).

Now trying to soften up Luzon (to help 6th & 8th Armies) and Okinawa/Home Islands (ready to invade Naha).

The AI is throwing everything at me including the kitchen sink.

Unfortunately it's a very a-historic kitchen sink consisting of:

Emily's and Mavis' being used as Kamikazes (not just the odd one, but whole Sqns of them)

Sqns of Betty's being used in the morning as Kamikazes in the morning and any survivors conducting torpedo or bombing raids in the afternoon.

Add to this such anomalies as 24 aircraft being used as Kamikazes having 16 destroyed by the CAP and then having the remaining 8 scoring 20 hits on 20 separate ships!

Then finally having combat results like:

6 Emilys managing to get past a CAP of 300+ fighters and score catastrophic hits on ships with the highest AAA ratings.

Obsolete fighters with a pair of 30/50 kg bombs sinking Iowa class battleships with a single Kamikaze hit (that's right that more than 50 000 tons of ship being sunk by an aircraft at maximum range that itself weighs less than 3 tons).

Basically the whole Kamikaze thing needs to be looked at as does the combat tables that allow for results like a small single seat fighter sinking a battleship when employed as a Kamikaze.

Given the actual effort required in real life to sink things, I should not be seeing things like 'BB New Jersey Kamikaze Hit 1 and is sunk' - it's laughable (as indeed were earlier combat results which had BB's and CV's sunk by single air launched torpedoes or single bombs of less than 100 kg (all of which I have seen - affecting both sides it has to be said) - the only (armoured)capital ship that was doomed by a single hit was PoW (when a torpedo struck it in the only place where a single hit would have that effect).

No excuses , if this is W.A.D. then this game is garbage.

WAD or not..., these results show that the Kamikaze portion of the programing is total JFB garbage! However, as with so many other things over the years since release, it can be fixed in the next patch. To call the entire GAME "garbage" because of one piece of programming is "garbage" on your part.

[Miller]

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Edit: Can the OP back this claim up with a screenshot?

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
To call the entire GAME "garbage" because of one piece of programming is "garbage" on your part.

I think I was speaking about the game as it currently stands. Obviously I realize it needs patching we'll see what the changes are when the dust settles.


Until then the game has been removed from my HD and is useless to me.

[chesmart]

           I had the Iowa hit by 18 kamikazes from betty to frances to zeros the damage she received was 20 sys 15 flot and 10 eng. Same thing happened to my other American fast BBs so i think kamikazes are WAD. My Cvs are a differant matter they sink or heavily damage with 5-7 kamikazes. CVEs and CVLS take 3-5 hits normally. How I know I decided to send a super TF to attack Osaka from Manila and I got creamed I shot down a lot of Japanese planes but they got through.
           My problem with kamikazes is that the AI IMHO is converting to many squadrons to Kamikazes at this rate when i start landing in Kyushu all squadrons will be kamikazes. the 11/09/44 and the AI is still devious he is still pulling some fast ones on me but I have been very lucky.
           Andy the AI is still having issues with trying to resupply isolated bases Saipan is one example at all costs and is losing destroyers at a fast rate. I took Guam and Tinian and based planes there that's why.
           Thats my experience till now.
 

[Andy Mac]

he can you send me a save please if possible I dont know what to do about the saipan stuff but I can take a look

bsq can you send me a save with the abnormal kami results please I have not seen that in any of my games and I have had a lot of games to 46

(I have seen a bb SUNK by kami but to be fair it had 3 Torpedoes in it before the kami Group hit it so it was the TT's that sank it the kami group just hit it att he end)

Andy

[bsq]

ORIGINAL: Miller

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Edit: Can the OP back this claim up with a screenshot?

Mate, I'd rather spend time playing the game than make outlandish claims. At present I cannot provide a screenshot as I was so hacked off by the blatant 'bug' in the middle of my attempt to clear some of the 'air' from the Home Islands, that I immediately reloaded my last save on the basis that such a ridiculous series of results could not be allowed to stand.

What actually happened was far worse.

To light weight aircraft acting as Kamikazes I lost Franklin, Bennington, Belleau Wood, New Jersey, Baltimore, Juneau, Atlanta, 4 Sumners, 3 Fletchers - all single hits from single engined fighters with 2 x 30kg bombs. So, as it was reckoned that the Iowas were armoured to withstand hits from anything they could throw, please tell me how a fighter travelling at perhaps close to 400kts in a dive has the same striking power as a 2700lb AP shell? Also, given that there were 8 Flt and 4 Light Carriers, plus escorts each amassing in excess of 10000 AAA points for each of the 4 TF's in the same hex - again can you tell me how so many hits were scored - USN having a bad day?

Just for context, in mid 44 before the Kamikaze trigger occurred, I sailed a similar sized force off Honshu and the AI again threw everything at me (except Kamikazes) and scored exactly zero hits over a 5 day period!

Whilst not agreeing with those who say the game is mortally wounded because of the over powered Kamikaze attacks, I still think this needs to be looked at.

Give me a chance and I will post the saves/screenies etc - because until I do, I know there will be those who say it's just a one off from some guy who doesn't know what he's on about. I think the fact that I have got to April 45, says that I might have devoted quite a bit of spare time to playing this game and just maybe uncovering the odd flaw.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
To call the entire GAME "garbage" because of one piece of programming is "garbage" on your part.

I think I was speaking about the game as it currently stands. Obviously I realize it needs patching we'll see what the changes are when the dust settles.


Until then the game has been removed from my HD and is useless to me.

Since you are not even active in the game anymore, do us a favor and stop making garbage posts.

[bsq]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

he can you send me a save please if possible I dont know what to do about the saipan stuff but I can take a look

bsq can you send me a save with the abnormal kami results please I have not seen that in any of my games and I have had a lot of games to 46

(I have seen a bb SUNK by kami but to be fair it had 3 Torpedoes in it before the kami Group hit it so it was the TT's that sank it the kami group just hit it att he end)

Andy

Andy

Will do, need to kick the other half off the 'rocket machine' I play this on (currently typing this on my steam driven laptop having been relegated to the lounge). I am sure I have a before save with my moves to that point but not sure if I have the after (given that the numbers will come up differently each turn), is that still of use to you?

It may take a little while to get this to you, but I will do it as I was so amazed by the results.

Cheers

Bob

[chesmart]

Save sent

[bsq]

ORIGINAL: Miller

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Edit: Can the OP back this claim up with a screenshot?

This do you as I have tried to reproduce it:

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 2
F6F-5 Hellcat x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Miami
CVL Langley, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CV Hancock, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CV Franklin, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
BB New Jersey
CA Vincennes, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CLAA Oakland



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x A6M8 Zero flying as kamikaze *
Kamikaze: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Too powerful, too unrealistic, single hits. 32 000 ton flat tops (even those with wooden flight decks) don't get sunk by single kamikaze strikes.

For Andy Mac, as this is not worse of the excesses I have seen, I'll set this save aside and run several more based on the pre-turn save for this event. I am sure I can get the AI to sink something it really has no right to with single engined kamikaze hits.

Edit...

Ran the following day after not being able to reproduce the above after 3 more goes and look;

Loss of CV Bunker Hill on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Intrepid on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Franklin on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Hancock on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Randolph on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Bennington on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Shangri-La on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Hornet II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Princeton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Belleau Wood on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Cowpens on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Langley on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of BB New Jersey on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Tuscaloosa on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Wichita on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Baltimore on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CB Alaska on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CB Guam on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CLAA Juneau on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CLAA San Diego on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Columbia on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Montpelier on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Birmingham on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Vicksburg on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cooper on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Drexler on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Hank on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Wallace Lind on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Charles S. Sperry on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Taussig on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Fletcher on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Abbot on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Ammen on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Aulick on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Bache on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Bennett on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Callaghan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Caperton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Capps on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Charrette on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Chauncey on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cotten on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Melvin on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Monssen on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Duncan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Lardner on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Walke on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Roe on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Dunlap on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Fanning on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Mahan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cummings on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Drayton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Lamson on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Case on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Conyngham on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cushing on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Perkins on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Reid on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Preston II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Beatty II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Aaron Ward II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted

90 % single kamikaze hits by single engined aircraft

[bsq]

Got the saves now but they are too big for to upload here apparently....