Kamikazes - Some Strange & Some Downright Odd Observations

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: bsq

Got the saves now but they are too big for to upload here apparently....

Zip it and post in tech support forum or send to Andy direct, his email is around the forum.....

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: bsq

ORIGINAL: Miller

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Edit: Can the OP back this claim up with a screenshot?

This do you as I have tried to reproduce it:

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 2
F6F-5 Hellcat x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Miami
CVL Langley, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CV Hancock, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CV Franklin, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
BB New Jersey
CA Vincennes, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CLAA Oakland



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x A6M8 Zero flying as kamikaze *
Kamikaze: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Too powerful, too unrealistic, single hits. 32 000 ton flat tops (even those with wooden flight decks) don't get sunk by single kamikaze strikes.

For Andy Mac, as this is not worse of the excesses I have seen, I'll set this save aside and run several more based on the pre-turn save for this event. I am sure I can get the AI to sink something it really has no right to with single engined kamikaze hits.

Edit...

Ran the following day after not being able to reproduce the above after 3 more goes and look;

Loss of CV Bunker Hill on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Intrepid on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Franklin on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Hancock on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Randolph on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Bennington on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Shangri-La on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Hornet II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Princeton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Belleau Wood on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Cowpens on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Langley on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of BB New Jersey on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Tuscaloosa on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Wichita on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Baltimore on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CB Alaska on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CB Guam on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CLAA Juneau on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CLAA San Diego on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Columbia on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Montpelier on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Birmingham on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Vicksburg on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cooper on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Drexler on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Hank on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Wallace Lind on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Charles S. Sperry on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Taussig on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Fletcher on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Abbot on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Ammen on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Aulick on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Bache on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Bennett on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Callaghan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Caperton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Capps on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Charrette on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Chauncey on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cotten on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Melvin on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Monssen on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Duncan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Lardner on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Walke on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Roe on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Dunlap on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Fanning on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Mahan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cummings on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Drayton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Lamson on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Case on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Conyngham on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cushing on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Perkins on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Reid on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Preston II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Beatty II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Aaron Ward II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted

90 % single kamikaze hits by single engined aircraft

At the top of the report New Jersey is not hit, yet she is listed as sunk on the same day as the rest? Huh?

Do you have any autosaves on? In the Save folder, down below all the Operations and Sigint reports are each and every day's Combat Results report, with date attached, in this format: "aoperationsreport_45XXXX. They are text files. If you have it, why don't you paste in the entire Combat Report for that day. I'd be interested as I'm appraching that era in my game.

[Andy Mac]

a.mcphie@btinternet.com

please I need to see a save of that one

Che I got yours and am looking at it

[stuman]

Yikes bsq. That is wild looking indeed.

[Venividivici10044]

ORIGINAL: Miller

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Perhaps it was a tactical nuke 250kg bomb? I do have to agree though; several CV class ships were hit by kamikaze strikes.

Franklin - 15 Oct 44 Leyte - Kamikaze strike - 56 dead; 19 Mar 45 - struck by 2x 250kg bombs (non-kamikaze) - 724 dead
Bunker Hill - 11 May 45 Okinawa - 346 killed - struck by kamikaze x2
Essex - 25 Nov 44 - Phillipines - 15 killed - kamikaze

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Kamikazes sank nothing larger than a CVE, so you're "they sank a lot of ships" applies only to ships smaller than an escort carrier.  Lethal to DD's and DE's, certainly.  Should they be lethal to CV's and BB's, absolutely not.

they shouldn´t be lethal to CVs? Now what would an Essex class look like if four or five Grace loaded up with bombs splash into one? I guess I would call that lethal. But of course you first have to get five hits and that´s the problem. But getting the five hits with a bombing attack is even harder.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

The CVEs being kaiser coffins, built on a transport hull. [8|]

I wish I would have known beforehand that this game would be modeled on the wishes of unadulterated JFB fantasy because I definately wouldn't have bought it.

calm down, there is one poster so far that made it into 45 vs the AI telling us that there seems to be something wrong. Have you tested it? If not, I wouldn´t complain before you reach that timeframe, in PBEM it´s more or less a dream to get that far and seriously, I wouldn´t care to play vs the AI for so long either.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I think there was one that hit a BB on the turret and scratched the paint, does that count

Here is a "paint-scratcher" for you. 54 men dead, 119 wounded. The ship was in no danger of sinking, true, but I would say that battleships had reason to take kamikazes seriously.

I´m pretty sure every ship in the US fleet in range of Kamikazes had to take them serious. And unlike some people here on the forum, the USN DID take them serious!

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: che200

           I had the Iowa hit by 18 kamikazes from betty to frances to zeros the damage she received was 20 sys 15 flot and 10 eng. Same thing happened to my other American fast BBs so i think kamikazes are WAD. My Cvs are a differant matter they sink or heavily damage with 5-7 kamikazes. CVEs and CVLS take 3-5 hits normally. How I know I decided to send a super TF to attack Osaka from Manila and I got creamed I shot down a lot of Japanese planes but they got through.

Except that 18 Kamikaze hits from Betties, Frances and Zeros probably should cause more damage on a BB (I guess also a BB could have been in serious trouble in RL after such hits, especially by the bombers) this sounds quite good for me. The question is how many of them make it through Cap, how many are shot down by flak. But the damage done to the CVs, CVLs and CVEs as described above sounds good to me.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: bsq

ORIGINAL: Miller

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Edit: Can the OP back this claim up with a screenshot?

Mate, I'd rather spend time playing the game than make outlandish claims. At present I cannot provide a screenshot as I was so hacked off by the blatant 'bug' in the middle of my attempt to clear some of the 'air' from the Home Islands, that I immediately reloaded my last save on the basis that such a ridiculous series of results could not be allowed to stand.

What actually happened was far worse.

To light weight aircraft acting as Kamikazes I lost Franklin, Bennington, Belleau Wood, New Jersey, Baltimore, Juneau, Atlanta, 4 Sumners, 3 Fletchers - all single hits from single engined fighters with 2 x 30kg bombs. So, as it was reckoned that the Iowas were armoured to withstand hits from anything they could throw, please tell me how a fighter travelling at perhaps close to 400kts in a dive has the same striking power as a 2700lb AP shell? Also, given that there were 8 Flt and 4 Light Carriers, plus escorts each amassing in excess of 10000 AAA points for each of the 4 TF's in the same hex - again can you tell me how so many hits were scored - USN having a bad day?

Just for context, in mid 44 before the Kamikaze trigger occurred, I sailed a similar sized force off Honshu and the AI again threw everything at me (except Kamikazes) and scored exactly zero hits over a 5 day period!

Whilst not agreeing with those who say the game is mortally wounded because of the over powered Kamikaze attacks, I still think this needs to be looked at.

Give me a chance and I will post the saves/screenies etc - because until I do, I know there will be those who say it's just a one off from some guy who doesn't know what he's on about. I think the fact that I have got to April 45, says that I might have devoted quite a bit of spare time to playing this game and just maybe uncovering the odd flaw.

wonder what asking for a screenshot is making it outlandish? Miller surely didn´t want to offend you. The things you mention are so off that it definetely is hard to believe though. No one is calling you a liar so don´t take it offensive please, but saying that a couple of CVs and cruisers were sunk by single fighter Kami hits is just hard to believe. And not just that, it´s something noone else has seen so far. If too many Kamis get through and the hit rate is too high that would be one thing, but the other would be the damage would be also far too high. Everything borked? [&:] And as Andy mentioned, he had several games going into 46.

But I totally agree with you that it has to be looked at. If there´s something wrong (and there are pro and con claims at the moment) then it has to be looked at and with the great support of this game (and it ever has been in WITP too) there will be changes in a patch if the devs and testers find a bug.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: bsq

ORIGINAL: Miller

But does a 250kg bomb penetrate an Iwo class BB in the game? If not then I cant see how one could be sunk by a single kamikaze hit??

Edit: Can the OP back this claim up with a screenshot?

This do you as I have tried to reproduce it:

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 2
F6F-5 Hellcat x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Miami
CVL Langley, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CV Hancock, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CV Franklin, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
BB New Jersey
CA Vincennes, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
CLAA Oakland



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x A6M8 Zero flying as kamikaze *
Kamikaze: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Too powerful, too unrealistic, single hits. 32 000 ton flat tops (even those with wooden flight decks) don't get sunk by single kamikaze strikes.

For Andy Mac, as this is not worse of the excesses I have seen, I'll set this save aside and run several more based on the pre-turn save for this event. I am sure I can get the AI to sink something it really has no right to with single engined kamikaze hits.

Edit...

Ran the following day after not being able to reproduce the above after 3 more goes and look;

Loss of CV Bunker Hill on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Intrepid on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Franklin on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Hancock on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Randolph on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Bennington on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Shangri-La on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CV Hornet II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Princeton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Belleau Wood on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Cowpens on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CVL Langley on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of BB New Jersey on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Tuscaloosa on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Wichita on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CA Baltimore on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CB Alaska on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CB Guam on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CLAA Juneau on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CLAA San Diego on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Columbia on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Montpelier on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Birmingham on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of CL Vicksburg on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cooper on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Drexler on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Hank on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Wallace Lind on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Charles S. Sperry on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Taussig on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Fletcher on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Abbot on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Ammen on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Aulick on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Bache on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Bennett on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Callaghan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Caperton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Capps on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Charrette on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Chauncey on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cotten on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Melvin on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Monssen on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Duncan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Lardner on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Walke on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Roe on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Dunlap on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Fanning on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Mahan on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cummings on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Drayton on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Lamson on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Case on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Conyngham on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Cushing on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Perkins on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Reid on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Preston II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Beatty II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted
Loss of DD Aaron Ward II on Apr 18, 1945 is admitted

90 % single kamikaze hits by single engined aircraft

those CVs weren´t damaged before and really are sunk?

[bsq]

Not taking offence, just posting the facts as my game unfolded. I have sent the saves to Andy Mac.

The after action stuff above was not the worst. The last save I generated (I ran this 6 times - 3 times with odd results, 3 times just a DD sunk (more realistic)...) saw the whole of the FCTF wiped out, thats 8CV, 4CVL, 1 BB, 2 CB, 3CA, 6CL and numerous DDs.

None of them had any more damage than one or system points (like you see after a TF has been at sea for a week or so).

The two parts to the posting are seperate runs, the combat reports for the 2nd summary would have stretched to 5 or 6 pages, so I have attached the 'worst' one here...

[chesmart]

Bsq I think you have a bug in your game. Andy in my game there is a bug that if the japanese have a succesful kamikaze attack and the aliies have a naval attack in the same turn the allied planes do kamikaze naval attacks in the animation screen. I think it is FOW as when i check the actual casualties they differ, if i reload the turn it does not happen again. It only hppene to me with CV planes.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: bsq

Not taking offence, just posting the facts as my game unfolded. I have sent the saves to Andy Mac.

The after action stuff above was not the worst. The last save I generated (I ran this 6 times - 3 times with odd results, 3 times just a DD sunk (more realistic)...) saw the whole of the FCTF wiped out, thats 8CV, 4CVL, 1 BB, 2 CB, 3CA, 6CL and numerous DDs.

None of them had any more damage than one or system points (like you see after a TF has been at sea for a week or so).

The two parts to the posting are seperate runs, the combat reports for the 2nd summary would have stretched to 5 or 6 pages, so I have attached the 'worst' one here...

I admit that those combat reports look more than strange, even like a bug. [&:]

something else that strikes me is when I see Ki-115 Tsurugis in the combat report dropping 1x800kg bombs... [&:] Those ac were purpose built Kamikaze aircraft IIRC, they didn´t even have a landing gear (dropped after take off as a Kamikaze wasn´t expected to "land"). Why are those single seat ac listed as bombers in the game? Am I missing something?

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

The CVEs being kaiser coffins, built on a transport hull. [8|]

I wish I would have known beforehand that this game would be modeled on the wishes of unadulterated JFB fantasy because I definately wouldn't have bought it.

I wish the people like you would not post here and throw garbage at devs at the first sign of what is most likely a bug... But we can't always get what we want. Such a cruel world!

[Andy Mac]

We have the saves and are looking into it

In my own saves I cannot recreate but in BSQ's when I run it I get the same result as he is seeing so something looks weird

All I can say under review at present

[Andy Mac]

p.s. if you see somethign odd do what the guys in this thread have done send me a save and we can look at it.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: che200

           I had the Iowa hit by 18 kamikazes from betty to frances to zeros the damage she received was 20 sys 15 flot and 10 eng. Same thing happened to my other American fast BBs so i think kamikazes are WAD. My Cvs are a differant matter they sink or heavily damage with 5-7 kamikazes. CVEs and CVLS take 3-5 hits normally. How I know I decided to send a super TF to attack Osaka from Manila and I got creamed I shot down a lot of Japanese planes but they got through.

Except that 18 Kamikaze hits from Betties, Frances and Zeros probably should cause more damage on a BB (I guess also a BB could have been in serious trouble in RL after such hits, especially by the bombers) this sounds quite good for me. The question is how many of them make it through Cap, how many are shot down by flak. But the damage done to the CVs, CVLs and CVEs as described above sounds good to me.

I agree with Castor Troy.

The kami results Che200 is showing would be along my expectations of the amount of punishment a kamikaze attack would inflict on the ships that receive the attack. A CV that sustained 7 kami hits IRL would be in a lot of trouble.

Bsq's results are another matter-way too many ships sunk outright by single hit from single seat aircraft-many lightweight fighters amongst them. Looks buggy.

Bsq-I'd encourage you to help Andy Mac sort it out with a save file-if we've learned anything from Matrix et. al. it's that they are very responsive to correcting spurious results.

Thanks for bringing this up, Bsq. I'll be checking this thread for updates.

[Anthropoid]

I figure the devs will spot these things as they come up and fix them. The guys who are bent out of shape can go play in some other playground, at least until then. Not really a big deal. There is not a game on the planet that does not need patching, and given these issues are 'hidden' in a late game dynamic I don't see how it is warranted to mount any sort of attack on the devs or the game itself.

Patience grasshoppah, in time we will have a fully functional AE. In the mean time just enjoy what you got!

[chesmart]

I used to have the same problems with the RHS mods of WITP, I used to have strange bugs pop up because of the patches which used to be released weekly. Probably thats what Bsq s problem is. If it is not game killing I continue to play, quite simple. In my game I have 2 or 3 bugs runing none are game killing 1 of them has been solved by the latest patch. When the final patch is issued all the bugs hopefully will be squashed and I can make my mod based on andys ironman and restart.