To Kill a Mocking Word

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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KenchiSulla
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by KenchiSulla »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I think the biggest problem isn't a single word but the underlying issue which is that many people here ( both developers and players ) invest hugely in the NIHS ( Not Invented Here Syndrome ) and appear closed to opinions or even discussion which runs counter to their own assumptions.

When you get people deriding or refusing to engage with those who are trying to be evidence-based then you have proof certain that there's something rotten at the core.... Sadly all too often people here think that "but my bias says different" trumps the need for rational discourse. Obviously there are also situations where the person arguing the counterpoint is purely reliant on their own bias.


Unfortunately, ever was it so. Humans often aren't rational, open to new viewpoints, tolerant of difference or even, often, particularly nice. This forum is just a microcosm of that with people banding into pseudo-clans, exaggerating differences with others in order to increase the extent to which they "belong" to "their own clan" and projecting out against "the other" that which they find unacceptable within themselves.


I applaud the sentiment but most people in online discussions don't really tend to operate at much above a cavedweller psychological level of personal and external insight.


Pessimistic? Yes, but also experientially and even evidence-based. There's a lot of interesting work being done on the social psychology of internet groups which seems to show this sort of emergent behaviour arises naturally time and again.


Even the whole "this game is great" .... "I feel betrayed because of this minor error which is a HUGE PROBLEM which renders the whole game useless and MUST BE FIXED. You have RUINED MY LIFE !!!!!" dichotomy which goes on here is analogous to the whole leadership myth thing which goes on with human groups. Humans tend to look for leaders and then bestow in them capabilities and hopes they don't and can't have. A certain portion remains blind to the difference between what is and what was hoped while others notice it and then utterly over-react swinging wildly from overly faithful follower into implacable enemy. Neither position has the benefit of logic and proportionality but both are highly human and because so few people take the time to realise that their hopes and disappointment are both magnified few people in net ( and other groups ) maintain a more steady course through this cycle.

Of note: the psychology of this leadership myth/cycle is not much different than the cycle which occurs in romantic love--- initially idealised, later realisation that "the other" isn't as one idealised her/him and then lastly either reconciliation to this reality and the adoption of new bond-reasons or the dissolution of the relationship ( ie divorce ).


So, Cuttlefish, bravo but I fear the vicissitudes of psychology will torpedo this particular Hibiki.

I would have said this myself, but then better. You beat me to it though

[:D]

(this was a joke).

On a more serious note, banning a word will not change human behaviour. Some feed of emotions, especially in internet discussion. I know a gamesite that existed a looooong time ago (Medieval total war fansite, totalwars.net). There was an area - the warzone - where people were allowed to participate in "internet jousting" aka smartass each other in the forums.

It was nice as a kind of experiment but it showed what can happen to people once you "unleash" them. It ain't a pretty sight. [:-]

Personally I like the saying "don't argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" and it has done me countless favours (is this the way you say it?) in internet conversation AND in real life..

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
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stuman
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by stuman »

Cuttlefish I understand what you are saying, and I agree.
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Terminus
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Well...I tried.

Just to be clear on one point, though, since some people seem to have misconstrued my meaning here. I do not ask people to avoid using the term because it is insulting or for some vague PC-motivated reason. No indeed. It was merely my observation that the word has become a barrier to intelligent discussion. Used the way that Chickenboy, for instance, uses it in his sig it is a friendly and funny term. But if start a thread to the effect that

(Note: the following claim is being made for example purposes only. I am NOT making this claim. It is merely an example. Please do not respond to this example)

the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes seems to be too low I might expect someone to post a reply saying that yes, the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes really was that bad. Someone else might post some counter-arguments and alternate statistics. Discussion ensues. We are all grognards here, we love this sort of thing. But pretty soon (and sooner rather than later these days, or so it seems to me) someone will haul out the "fanboy" term to dismiss the people on the opposing side of the argument and there goes your fun, nit-picky thread about Japanese float planes. It's use seems to signal the descent of a thread into pointless bickering and insults.

Some threads will get there anyway, of course. It's just the nature of debate on the internet.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"




You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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frank1970
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by frank1970 »

CF is absolutely right. Imho supressing the opinion of others by giving names has a good old tradition (not only in Germany) and I dislike it very much! (Yes, I am a freespeech fanboy!"
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USSAmerica
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Well...I tried.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"

You didn't fail at all, CF. You made me laugh my ass off with that line. [:D]



Mike

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JWE
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Terminus
You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.
I’m with Terminus. Definitely not an ‘epic fail’ CF. Agree with you, but also agree with others that say this cannot be expunged. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. Little egos will always whine with little voices on little issues, no matter what ya do. And to make themselves important, they always blame their own inadequacy on some hidden, mystical, opposing fanboism. Sigh.

Unfortunately, we all have to go through puberty, and that’s not pretty, and sometimes it lasts a lot longer than it biologically should.

No worries CF. You get it. Just realize how immature the fanboy thing is, and give the teeny boppers a break. They really are beneath your notice.
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AW1Steve
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by AW1Steve »

I had not realized what a hated and devisive word "fanboy" was till I read some of the above posts. I had always seen it as a short hand used by players , to indicate their side preference. Apparently it is a much more meaningfull and offensive word that I ever dreamed! Perhaps you fine gentlemen could take the time to come up with a "speach code" so that Newbies and neanderthaals (like myself) will not inadvertenlty give offense. [8|] I promise not to use the word again. Perhaps you can come up with a politicaly correct, totally inoffensive replacement word to indicate which side one perfers to play? [:(]
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Terminus
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Terminus »

You can prefer to play a given side without being a fanboy. Major Mike prefers to play the Japs, but he's not a fanboy.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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Jim D Burns
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Perhaps you can come up with a politicaly correct, totally inoffensive replacement word to indicate which side one perfers to play? [:(]

Hmmm...

How about man caused, game addicted, axis/allied player, who in no way means to give offense to anyone or cause them to lose sleep over the inadvertent and accidental use of a harsh term or word? [;)]

Gah! To hell with it, I’m a friggin fanboy till the day I die. AE RuLeZ! [:D]
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Terminus
You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.
I’m with Terminus. Definitely not an ‘epic fail’ CF. Agree with you, but also agree with others that say this cannot be expunged. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. Little egos will always whine with little voices on little issues, no matter what ya do. And to make themselves important, they always blame their own inadequacy on some hidden, mystical, opposing fanboism. Sigh.

Unfortunately, we all have to go through puberty, and that’s not pretty, and sometimes it lasts a lot longer than it biologically should.

No worries CF. You get it. Just realize how immature the fanboy thing is, and give the teeny boppers a break. They really are beneath your notice.

I never use these term (I trust none of us are boys) but , I find this subject as it relates to these acronyms ridiculous. And if we all start using " I find you have a preference for playing the Allied/Axis side and your comments reflect a bias to that end". Would we then be looking for that combination of keystrokes to be up in arms about and look to ban them. Come on folks!! These letters do not indicate ones attitude towards a persons color, religion or ethnicity only a playing style preference and opinion ABOUT A GAME. What the hell is next.

These comments are not directed towards you JWE or any others who wish to concede to using the terms, just the issue.
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JWE
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
I never use these term (I trust none of us are boys) but , I find this subject as it relates to these acronyms ridiculous. And if we all start using " I find you have a preference for playing the Allied/Axis side and your comments reflect a bias to that end". Would we then be looking for that combination of keystrokes to be up in arms about and look to ban them. Come on folks!! These letters do not indicate ones attitude towards a persons color, religion or ethnicity only a playing style preference and opinion ABOUT A GAME. What the hell is next.

These comments are not directed towards you JWE or any others who wish to concede to using the terms, just the issue.
I know Buck. And I agree. Terms don't make argument. As you well know, I'm a Japanese fan in many ways, an Allied fan in many others. Being a fan brings a lot of things into focus that might otherwise get lost in the noise. Being a fan is good.

I just get annoyed at the people who blame fanboism for their own inadequacies. Got no issue with anyone being a fanboy, or not.
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

I just dont get involved with discussions that degenerate into name calling. someone on the WitP Forums had the great sig line
"Don't argue with an idiot, He'll drap you down to his level and beat you with experience"
.. Wise words

As for Japanese floatplanes being too accurate ? I reccomend the Book "Float Bombers and armed scouts 41-45" subtitled "How floats won the war".

Good effort CF and nice to see Nemo over here for a change .. welcome back you old scoundrel[;)].
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
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AW1Steve
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You can prefer to play a given side without being a fanboy. Major Mike prefers to play the Japs, but he's not a fanboy.


And yet in his sig banner he's "Japanese production fanboy". How strange? I play both sides. Does that make me an "Allied/Japanese fanboy"?

Let me state clearly that I see no problem using the term "fanboy" to indicate side preference. I do have a problem with people labelling each other with the term to denote their own predujicial opion of someone else.

Frankly I consider myself an "WITP Fanboy", a "WPO fanboy" and a "WITP AE fanboy". [:D]
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Terminus
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Terminus »

The easiest way to recognize a fanboy is to check for a sense of humour. Real fanboys have no sense of humour, and that's why Major Mike isn't one.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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Q-Ball
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by Q-Ball »

As Cuttlefish says, maybe it isn't the terminology, it's how it's used.

Those claiming that others have a hidden agenda usually have one of their own.
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fabertong
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by fabertong »

Q-Ball ....I think...has hit the nail on the head as far as what Cuttlefish was meaning......the term 'fanboy' is fine.......depending on it's usage....we have all seen good game discussions sidetracked by 'You only say this because you are an x or y fanboy'....as a way to discredit someones point of view....rather than embrace the exchange of views....and with respect....sometimes agree to disagree.....
usecase
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by usecase »

It's all a bit pointless isn't it? We don't get to run controlled experiments. We have precisely one datum, which was US&allies vs Japanese Empire, which the US won by a knockout.

You can certainly argue that Japan could have done better; on the other hand its best course of action (in retrospect) would have been to keep out of the war altogether. Or, if war it were, just take on the European powers.

My main arguments are with AE's UI; it's much improved over stock, but the need for WitpStaff and WitpTracker shows the the way for WITP II. Please say there will be a WITP II :).
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by anarchyintheuk »

Don't know that I've ever called someone an FB, but I prefer to reserve the option.
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frank1970
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by frank1970 »

ORIGINAL: usecase

It's all a bit pointless isn't it? We don't get to run controlled experiments. We have precisely one datum, which was US&allies vs Japanese Empire, which the US won by a knockout.

You can certainly argue that Japan could have done better; on the other hand its best course of action (in retrospect) would have been to keep out of the war altogether. Or, if war it were, just take on the European powers.

My main arguments are with AE's UI; it's much improved over stock, but the need for WitpStaff and WitpTracker shows the the way for WITP II. Please say there will be a WITP II :).
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KenchiSulla
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RE: To Kill a Mocking Word

Post by KenchiSulla »

I am a moderator fanboy. Do we have any?
AKA Cannonfodder

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¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
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