This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!
E.g. if you go in with a fighter sweep @30k and attack with bombers @15k i wouldn´t be surprized if the bombers arrive long before the sweep does.
I think you meant "a fighter ESCORT @30k". Sweeps are fighter missions independent of bombing missions.
[Sorry if I sound preachy, but let's keep the terminology straight.]
In fact no.
I wanted to point out that if you plan a sweep and an escorted raid on an AB (for simplicity launched from the same AB)
and you set the sweep to 30k and the raid to 15k theres no reason to be surprized when the (escorted) bombers arrive before the sweep. [;)]
And BPRE, yes I´ve read that part and it says try. When setting such a big alt difference between the sweep and the raid you are doing everything
to make this as hard as possible. Believe me, setting the sweep to the same alt as the raid really helps.
edit:
ORIGINAL: Mynok
You sweep until you have reduced the CAP's effectiveness so that you can successfully escort the bombing missions. Then you escort and bomb.
Hehe Mynok much shorter and to the point than I seemed able to be. [:'(]
Oh, I see. Sweeps only occurred on days BEFORE bombing raids during World War II. They didn't occur on the day of a bombing raid. I hadn't realized this and it explains my misunderstanding of the purpose and role of a sweep. From now on I'll limit my sweeps to days I don't plan to bomb an enemy base.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
i was at my local watering hole this weekend and ordered a shot of burbon and a beer chaser. the bartender brought me the shot, but then had the nerve to get distracted and forget the beer. what's a fellow to do? i could sit quietly and await my chaser, or damn the torpedoes and down the hatch with the shot. needless to say, my drinking was totally un-coordinated after this point and chaos ensued...don't get me started on the time the beer showed up and the shot was no where to be seen, or the time my buddy ordered the shot, i ordered the beer, and god knew when either would show up...[;)]
Kirk Lazarus: I know who I am. I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude! Ron Swanson: Clear alcohols are for rich women on diets.
There's actually one more dimension to this that I have noticed.
If you manage to send a sweep towards a base which is Long Range CAPed it might meet a few planes and clear them.
When the bomb mission arrives they seem to meet all the reinforcements that failed to arrive in time for the sweep.
I've seen this a couple of times over Buna. The allied missions originated in Port Moresby and possible some of the bombers in Cooktown while the AI sent in the CAP from Finschhafen (I think).
Not necessarily anything wrong with this but it actually made the sweep mission counterproductive.
Canorebel sweeps WAD (in fact I hate that term). But you set alt differences so big that you increase chances that they go in way after the actual raid
arrives.
Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet. first sweep
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet first raid
Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet. second raid
Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 38,100 feet. second sweep
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 37,600 feet. third sweep
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet. third raid (boah you can be happy they did not arrive earlier)
Do I need to go on? You did everything to make coordinated sweeps/strikes as hard as possible.
The manual clearly states that setting attacks to the same altitude is the most important thing for coordination purposes.
Thats no criticism, I just think you missed a major factor of how ingame strike coordinations are done.
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 90 - The CAP isn't fragmented.
Wrong. CAP is always fragmented, all planes assigned to CAP are never in the air at the same time. Report will show all available CAP fighters, in this case 90, but only a portion will be able to intercept (depending on many factors, mostly by estimated time to target and aircraft climb rate).
Oh, I see. Sweeps only occurred on days BEFORE bombing raids during World War II. They didn't occur on the day of a bombing raid. I hadn't realized this and it explains my misunderstanding of the purpose and role of a sweep. From now on I'll limit my sweeps to days I don't plan to bomb an enemy base.
That will work better for you in the game. Not saying it was totally historical. [;)]
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
Canoerebel,
I understand your frustration. Remember though that this is a turn-based game. There is a way to gt the results you are looking for, but unfortunately WitP and AE do not have specific features that delve into the tactical level you are in need of to Sweep, Bomb, & Escort all on the same turn. Allow me to offer some suggestions.
first a couple of questons.
1. Where were the sweepers stationed? Same hex as bombers? Same hex as Escorts?
2. What was the weather in the Sweepers base hex?
3. What kind of leader did they have?
4. Were they in normal or extended clean range?
5. Were they in normal or extended Drop tank range?
6. If they were in DT range did they have enough supply to fly?
7. Were they set to the same altitude as the Escort and strike?
8. Did you watch the replay? What messages flashed across the screen?
Air Ops are a complex process. Not just in this game, but IRL too. LOTS of moving parts, variables, pop ups, unexpected challenges, all these things can be overcome by good communications. Get the word to the Bomber OpsO that the Sweepers takeoff time slid to the right 15 min for Fog on the ground and you have a strike going to a target assuming they are behind a sweep when in fact they are not. This sort of thing happened all the time. Communication was extremely difficult. hell it still is today! Just try getting to units separated by 100 miles to phone brief between flight leads, then brief internally, and then execute as briefed. Something always comes up! (leads jet goes down, AFFF goes off in the hangar and the whole sqdn is grounded! lol)
Air Ops also often run in fits and spurts, separated by a period of recuperation, both for the men and machines. Campaigns were rarely continuous, unless on a small scale with many units sharing responsibilities. You need to really plan an operation and have contingency plans and sufficient assets in place (when possible) to provide that extra "umph".
Now some Suggestions:
1. There is a way to insure your Sweep goes in first, and it isn't that surprising. Dedicate a day, or even a week to Battlefield preparation. Sweep the target for a day (even a week)ahead of your planned strikes. Use your most lethal, well rested, best equipped and led Fighter units. And use large numbers. Make a show of force. Wear the enemy down a bit. Don't leave to chance the possibility that a raid may go uncoordinated or Sweeps might be canceled for weather.
2. Once this is done, you can:
a. make your first couple of days a maximum effort against the remnants of the Aerial opposition in the target hex. Use ALL of your bomber assets to hammer the enemy air in the ground on the first day or two, then begin to rest Bomber units as necessary and turn your attention to your primary strategic objective. If it was his Airfields then press with that. If it is his port then switch to Port.
or
b. Split your forces on your first day and hammer the remnants of his air arm with half your forces and hammer the primary objective with the other. (You can also divide by type, tac bombers at AFs, Heavy Bombers at Strat targets)
What ever you do don't wait for him to rebuild his Air assets in the target hex. If you caught him off guard with the intensity and your unity of effort against the target hex you have maybe a couple of turns before he reinforces. Hit your primary target, and then return to an aggressive anti Air campaign by switching to Sweeps only for a day or two (rest your Escorts and Bombers). You can usually feel this one out as you go. If new types of A/C begin to apear (ie, Zekes when before there were only Oscars), then your are getting to him, and he is trying to reinforce. Hammer him with strong sweeps!
3. BE PATIENT.
4. Rinse and repeat....
If you insist in doing it all in one turn...
1. Set all your units you intend to coordinate to the same altitude
2. Check the Weather in all hexes that apply. Target hex and origination hexes for all units.
3. Check the Leaders. The Sweepers need an aggressive leader. Make sure Aggression and Air are tops.
4. Overall EXP helps too. Don't send a rookie unit!!
5. Co-locate Sweep units with Bombers. The code WANTS to sweep first. It's only when something else occurs or not all the best conditions are present that they begin to degrade.
But why is "7. Were they set to the same altitude as the Escort and strike?" important ? [&:]
Because Strike Coordination relies on one thing and one thing only as far as teh code interpreting the player's desires that they fly together....
ALTITUDE SETTING!!!! Set all unit that you WANT to coordinate to the SAME Altitude. Regardless of their origination hex. This is the most important thing. If the desired altitude for your bombers is Too low to be effective for the A/C type in use for the sweep mission, then Sweep the day before in preparation for the Strike.
incidentally Canoe I went back and looked at your report and noted that your sweep was around 43k'? There is no way they would even attempt to coordinate. Not to mention that the CAP could never get to them if they wanted to...
I wanted to present some additional thoughts and data regarding the current "sweep" model. This has been discussed at length in another Sweep thread, but I wanted to set this up specifically to provide detals about a recent situation I experienced in Burma and why i think it illustrates the situation. It will take me a little while to get everything together, so please refrain from posting any replies until I have a chance to post the combat replay from the turn in question. That should be in an hour or so.
Before I go searching for that post and type in some of the salient details, here are some poitns about sweeps:
1) AE (and WitP and UV) are amazing games because, in part, they are remarkably intuitive inspite of their complexity. That is, even a newbie has a chance to jump right into the game and, if they have a decent understanding of the real war in the Pacific, they are going to have a pretty good idea how to play the game. That's a wonderful attribute.
2) Therefore, whenever possible, the game engine ought to prefer intuitive applications rather than counter-intuitive applications.
3) Intuitively, a player who sets up sweep missions and bomber missions to strike the same hex in the same turn expects the fighters to go in first. There is nothing wrong with this expectation. That's how military leaders would do it. Both military leaders and players of this game realize that often the best laid plans will go awry so that his orders won't get carried out, but the screw up should be the departure from the rule, not the rule.
4) A player shouldn't have to go through wild permutations in order to get an artificial fix to the current situation - such as setting bomber priority to naval strike first with sweep as the alternative mission. This just overcomplicates the situation and is a recipe for disaster - a single enemy AMc could show within range and all the bombers could target it leading to total mayhem.
5) Some developers have expressed that a big objective was to do away with uber CAP. But based upon the example I will provide later, this didn't happen. My fighters and bombers went in against the enemy hex in dribs and drabs and faced 90 Japanese Oscars. That's bad enough, but what happened next was even worse. Because my aircraft attacked waves of small groups, the Oscars eventually ran out of ammo or petrol and landed - so that when most of my Sweep fighters came in there weren't any Japanese fighters in the sky. So, 90 fighters got to take on little waves of 5-10 aircraft each, tore them up, then retired and didn't have to take on the meat of the Allied raid.
6) Contrary to what some have asserted this wasn't an particularly complicated mission:
a) The Japanese control Akyab.
b) The Allies wanted to hit the airfield there with a combination of Sweep, Bomb, and Escort missions.
c) The Allies were coming from close by - the fighters from Cox's Bazaar and Chittagong and the bombers from Diamond Harbor and Calcutta.
d) The fighers were closer to the target than the bombers, but came in much later (and, as noted, didn't get to tangle with the enemy because they had already retired).
7) Since this mission was not particularly complicated, I would have expected it to come off reasonably well, with the Sweep coming first followed by the bombers and escorts; but even had things gone awry, I would have expected the Sweep to come after the bombers and still face the enemy.
8) I would expect things to get mucked up now and then because that is war. But from what I've seen by developers in the other thread it sounds like this is the NORM for Sweep raids.
Sincerely,
Canoe "Let's Go with Intuative by Default" Rebel
I dont think you can say the interface or sweep mission is not intuitive, after all the fighters did perform a sweep, just like the button says. If the button instead said "sweep ahead of bombers" and they went in after, sure that would be unintuitive, but you are reading too much into it. You selected the sweep option and it produced a sweep mission, nothing wrong there.
Really if anything, i think the interface takes the correct approach and completely ignores co-ordination, as coordinated air strikes do not always occur and instead based on several other factors, as explained in the rules and by others. It probably would be unintuitive to have a button or option that mentioned coordination, as it would not always work as intended and produce unpredictable results.
incidentally Canoe I went back and looked at your report and noted that your sweep was around 43k'? There is no way they would even attempt to coordinate. Not to mention that the CAP could never get to them if they wanted to...
Everyone missed that little tidbit of info. Good call, Elf.
Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
Thanks for many helpful posts, especially those by LoBaron and Elf. I can see now that my own orders (having my Sweeping squadrons set at different altitudes, and at altitudes different from the bombers) was the main cause of my woes. I set the fighters so high because I had read a number of posts that players were having success running Hurricanes at max altitude, but in retrospect those Hurricane sweeps were going in by themselves (not with bombers).
So...the main cause of my "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is...myself.
P.S. You mean I have to pay attention to details in this game?
[&o]
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Stratosphere sweeps and air combat in general are pure fantasy for WW2 era this game covers. Sweep that goes in at 43k altitude should most of the time fail to even locate enemy CAP.
Since the combat happened in Burma on the average overcast day there would be higher chances to completely miss the target hex than to see something from that altitude through the clouds below.
Reading through some more texts (although more on air tactics in general) it isn't strange us WitP players expect the sweep to fly ahead of the bombers! I believe most of us know the example of the Battle of Britain with the Messerschmitt 109's doing a Freie Jagd (free hunt). Such tactics were actually quite common when air superiority was to be won. Usually some airfield bombing was involved. So there is definately something to say for expecting the sweeps to be coordinated with bomber missions.
Personally I'd say the game does a good job simulating this but I do play slow and careful not expecting exact results. I'm happy knowing how to improve on implementing sweeps with Elf's info! [:D]
I was hoping to find some direct reading on planning and coordinating strikes. I was hoping to find good data to establish the odds of accomplishing complicated missions. We agree this was hard and easy to be disturbed by so many factors but nevertheless it was often done and accomplished more or less successfully! Can somebody point me to some good books on this specific subject because all I find are books which mention planning as a side issue!
Thanks for many helpful posts, especially those by LoBaron and Elf. I can see now that my own orders (having my Sweeping squadrons set at different altitudes, and at altitudes different from the bombers) was the main cause of my woes. I set the fighters so high because I had read a number of posts that players were having success running Hurricanes at max altitude, but in retrospect those Hurricane sweeps were going in by themselves (not with bombers).
So...the main cause of my "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is...myself.
P.S. You mean I have to pay attention to details in this game?
[&o]
Canorebel I think besides TheElf and one of the other few enlightened ones the details you have to pay attention to to play a "flawless" game are too numerous
for us earthlings. [:D]
I´m an avid reader of your AAR and I learned much from it! Only fair to give something back if I´m able to.
Hope that information helps on your war effort. [:)]
Regarding comments about high altitude sweeps, I was just following the recommendations made by several players that Hurricanes on sweep missions at max altitude were having good success.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
