"Tojo Edition"

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: JWE


Respond – politely – to the jerkpimple, as Erik requests. But understand there’s nothing to justify

He was polite and accurate in his criticisms.

It's "jerkpimples" like you, Terminus & Mynok that make this forum for Fanbois Only.

Then why do you keep coming back?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Jerkpimple? Way to foster mature debate.

The guy got a bit worked up but he actually made a few points of value. Labelling him as a "jerkpimple" is unnecessary and unprofessional and indicative of a serious case of NIHS ( Not Invented Here Syndrome ).

I'm shocked to see you name-call like this JWE as you've normally been extremely gracious and problem/solution-focussed as opposed to getting personal.

So nothing else in the post matters, just one choice of a single word. Darn. I kinda think this makes Eriks point is a sideways fashion.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: JWE


Respond – politely – to the jerkpimple, as Erik requests. But understand there’s nothing to justify

He was polite and accurate in his criticisms.

It's "jerkpimples" like you, Terminus & Mynok that make this forum for Fanbois Only.

Then why do you keep coming back?

I guess cause I paid for the game (twice now - three times counting UV) and still hold out hope that it will someday be worth all the time and money I spent.

BTW, I've also been here longer than all three of you unpleasant noobs. Maybe y'all should leave?

[Erik Rutins]

Good grief. There is no need for insults here and I specifically asked for civility and politeness. The original poster over there is not a "jerkpimple" or another name and I respect that people can disagree on this subject here, there or anywhere. I hoped that he could hear from some other gamers as I know there are opinions that disagree with his and folks who have had no problem working with house rules for areas that are of issue (not to mention the quiet China variants we added in the first update for those who didn't want to deal with China).

My main objection personally was to the idea that we had somehow deliberately biased the game one way or another. That's completely false, but the game is complex enough that there are certainly balance issues that have needed work since release.

Getting back on track, I very much appreciate the posts here that provide information on what they see as the main issues leading up to the just-release second update. It's always helpful to have summaries like that directly from gamers and I know the team has been listening to you all throughout. With that said, everything can't be done all at once and sometimes the fix is potentially worse than the problem and thus gets left for another day. In any case, we are listening and I'd like to hear more - and I'd like to hear from you all again after you've had a chance to put the second update through its paces to make sure we know what to investigate for the third update.

Regards,

- Erik

[Nemo121]

JWE,

So nothing else in the post matters, just one choice of a single word.

No, I never said that. If I had thought the rest of the post was cr*p I would have rebutted it as well. I think the rest of the post is rational and backed by the facts as I know them.

So, why did I reply to the jerkpimple thing? Simple, if someone makes a reasoned, cogent point and then finishes it off by calling someone a n*gg*r am I expected to begin my response by saying. "Well, I'd like to thank you for the valid points you made and the clear and cogent way in which they were presented. I would also like to discuss how you ended your point."

No, it is quite reasonable that if you agree with what someone said but find their conclusion unpalatable that you discuss that conclusion. And just to be clear, yes I understand that jerkpimple isn't exactly the worst thing to call someone in the English language but the principle of the thing still stands.


So, just to be clear. I found the rest of your post quite reasonable and in keeping with the facts as I know them. I also found the ending of your post to be snide and unbecoming. I would expect no less from some of the people on this forum but I'm surprised because, previously, I'd never seen you actually stoop to confusing the personal with the professional. I held you in very high esteem professionally and felt that no matter what any time I'd dealt with you previously any issue I'd brought to the table ( re: WiTP or AE etc ) had been judged on its merits. I ask no more than that and because you did that I held you in very high esteem professionally and indeed personally as that quality is quite rare and spoke well of you. In short I expected better of you than this and have seen you act better in the past. THAT is why I commented in surprise.


I find it even more disappointing that your response was not to simply say, "Heat of the moment" or somesuch but actually to launch an attack on me by putting words into my mouth. In short you didn't deal with the issue but immediately got personal. You've changed since I last saw your posts in the WiTP forum ( I haven't read the AE forum over the past few months ) and the change is not, in my opinion, for the better. That saddens me.


Would I have posted at all if T or someone else had called someone a jerkpimple? No, because one cannot expect better from them and so they must be judged by the low standards they set. But I was surprised to hear this from you.


I'd like to be clear... I don't say ANY of that to attack you or anything. I have, until now, always found you gracious, professional, appropriate, open and reasonable.


P.s. I don't even understand what you mean by "makes Erik's point in a sidewys fashion"? My post didn't imply either side was intentionally favoured. I honestly don't even understand what you are implying here.

[DuckofTindalos]

While I appreciate that, Erik, I wonder why we on the development team aren't allowed to be frustrated at the situation. We've been accused of all sorts of falsehoods and lies, and even though we've told the truth again and again and again, it's without effect.

I think John was being kind, actually.

[HansBolter]

Let me state up front that I do not agree with the guy no matter what some of you may think.

I am concerned about two things.


1. No one seems to have answered his single greatest criticism, that almost the entire air force can be pulled without detriment.

2. Wargame developers would never, never survive the brutal design crits of an architecture school. One of the reasons I am as hard and blunt with criticism as I am is because I did survive those brutal design crits in architecture school. Criticism is a GOOD thing folks, it spurs us to improve. Too many devs and playtesters have not learned how to take criticism of their work without perceiving it as criticism of themselves.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

While I appreciate that, Erik, I wonder why we on the development team aren't allowed to be frustrated at the situation. We've been accused of all sorts of falsehoods and lies, and even though we've told the truth again and again and again, it's without effect.

I think John was being kind, actually.

You're allowed to be frustrated - just not publically!

[Andy Mac]

Thats fair Hans but all the air force is restricted so he is needing to pay PP's to withdraw those air units well thats game design - I would ask has he actually tried it ?

If he is basing them in Russia to bomb China there isnt much I can do about it.
Andy

[JWE]

My goodness. So much fuss over a word.

Well, it is getting chilly in SoCal, and the winter storms are coming. Not quite ready to move the household yet, but still looks like a good time to take a looong vacation south of the line. They have this wicked gnarly stuff they make from pineapple that I've taken a liking to. And there's this restaurant that does a pistaccio soufle that's to die for.

Ya'll have fun now.

[Nemo121]

Terminus,

We've been accused of all sorts of falsehoods and lies

Not by me. And accusing you guys of lies etc isn't right either. BOTH groups should stick to debating the facts or, at least, trying to clarify the facts.

even though we've told the truth again and again and again, it's without effect. 

Aye but doesn't that point up the need for a systemic solution in which there are certain clear rules for posters as to what will and won't get them a response. If they follow the rules then they'll get a polite, appropriate response. If they don't they won't. At present there's a fairly good chance a valid query from someone who posts in good faith will get a snappy reply from developers who are probably fried from people getting abusive in PMs etc. It is human but it is also bad policy.

It ends up shooting the wrong guy and turning potential allies into people who are, at best, indifferent.

E.g.
Air, Naval, Land and Economic topics could each have a couple of nominated devs who will try to answer questions on those topics but ONLY if they are posted in the appropriate threads/sub-forum.

If you don't post in the right sub-forum then you can't expect an answer. If you ask something they don't have time to work on you'll get a "We don't have time to do that research now but if you do it we'll look at your findings." Devs who like poking fun at people with questions would undertake to stay out of those subforums unless they're being constructive.

If someone posts in those sub-forums and isn't constructive then it'll be much clearer that they aren't being constructive and, over time, a self-policing policy will develop ( it is human nature ).

Benefits: It provides clear rules for posters. It guarantees a constructive answer ( even if it is only - "No, we don't have time to do x or y " ) from developers. It gives developers the freedom to ignore any posts made in other forums or via PM as those posts "Don't follow the policy for obtaining feedback/a response."

In short it should save developers and posters a lot of time and frustration. The current chaotic system does, I think, foster frustration on both sides which isn't healthy for the game ( or people involved ).

[Andy Mac]

Actually thats whats supposed to happen - I constantly tell folks the only thread I am guaranteed to review is the land sticky thread.

I think the others are the same

I make a point of checking the land thread and tech support forum every day apart from that I review others when I can and answer queries in other threads when I have the time

[DuckofTindalos]

And people have also been told countless times that if they've got problems and issues they'd like to see solved, they must open a thread in the Tech Support forum and attach a savegame to expect support. Do they do it? No. Are we considered jerks if we don't respond to threads in the main forum? Youbetcha.

I personally think there's a certain amount of jealousy involved, at least on the part of some of the whiners. The whole dev team was lifted from the forum, and there's obviously a number of forum posters who suffer from It-Shoulda-Been-Me-itis.

[Erik Rutins]

Allright, I think that there is entirely too much jumping to conclusions and making assumptions going on around here. Everyone, please step back, take a deep breath, now shake hands and let's start over.

Here's are the discussion points for this thread:

1. The development team did not deliberately balance the game towards the Allied or Japanese sides, but rather strove to make objective history their guide in both design and statistics.

2. Some folks are convinced otherwise. I wish we could convince them they are wrong.

3. That doesn't take away from the fact that there are some issues that have been and are being addressed that caused some balance problems in the initial release. However, some of these issues were also exaggerated and people often discard issues that contradict their perceived balance bias in the game when making their argument that it is skewed one way or another.

4. We're interested to hear how the new update is working for everyone and how many of those issues it has in fact resolved.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Allright, I think that there is entirely too much jumping to conclusions and making assumptions going on around here. Everyone, please step back, take a deep breath, now shake hands and let's start over.

Here's are the discussion points for this thread:

1. The development team did not deliberately balance the game towards the Allied or Japanese sides, but rather strove to make objective history their guide in both design and statistics.

2. Some folks are convinced otherwise. I wish we could convince them they are wrong.

3. That doesn't take away from the fact that there are some issues that have been and are being addressed that caused some balance problems in the initial release. However, some of these issues were also exaggerated and people often discard issues that contradict their perceived balance bias in the game when making their argument that it is skewed one way or another.

4. We're interested to hear how the new update is working for everyone and how many of those issues it has in fact resolved.

1. I doubt it. How many pbem games are out of the first year-much less the first five months? Way too early to tell.

2. I doubt you can change his mind. It is just human nature to form an opinion based on personal experience. After all, my life (game) is much more improtant than anybody else's. If I get jumped by KB and busted up, then you can bet I going be bitching about balance. I just can't help myself.

3. I have been more than vocal in stating my opinions and suggestions. It seems like they are being worked on. I have never seen a better company at supporting a game. ( I mean that.) A ambitious project of this size will always require numerous patches and refinements. You guys seem to be at least hearing our gripes.

4. As the Allied player, I made the mistake of granting my "too good" opponent a go at scen. #2 and I am getting pimp slapped like a two dollah ho. So, it is hard for me to evaluate. China seems much better post patch but it may be too late for me. However, I got a long way to play. I still have all my carriers, and as long as I have all of them, I am still in the poker game. Otherwise, it is too eary to start griping about he patch..[;)] Don't worry, you will hear from me.

I could tell from his post that the guy was frustrated. Some of the issues he brough up are legit and some have already been addressed. Give him a break. As for balance, ask me again this time next year.

As for the game. We maybe I am going to go down in flames due to it being an unbalanced pig. However, I doubt that. And if it is and I do, it is going to be one hell of a ride. [&o]

[khyberbill]

The starting presumption then as now is these units are RESTRICTED we said pre releasem, during release, pre patch 1, post patch 1 and I am saying it again now.

Andy, I think your posts are some of the best. Always direct and informative. When I surf the forum I always try to read yours because I know I will learn something new. That being said, my opponent bought out all the artillery from Manchuria with PP, moved all the tubes to Changsha and started blasting away. 10,000+ casualties a turn was the norm.

A dev asked to see the game turn and Don, my opponent, sent it to him and the dev told us it was WAD. What surprised Don, was that 1) lvl 4 forts were made out of tissue paper, 2) how easy it was to supply his death star. Is it gamey to buy out all the artillery from the Kwangtung Army and mass it in one spot? Your post indicates it is not, as long as the PP's are paid. Before Patch 1 and Patch 2 there was lots of discussion about China on this forum. Canoerebel's AAR today indicated that it is still a slaughterhouse. The effectiveness of massed artillery is frightening. Don also blasted me in Burma with a mini-death star. We made it to 10/42 and are now going to re-start with Patch 2 and HR.

AE is a great game. I just wish I didn't have to consider an HR or HRs for China when I don't think any are required elsewhere. The fact is, if you tell someone that he can remove over 5000 AV from Manchuko after paying the PPs and the Russians are going to sit and drink vodka in their barracks, then a normal person is going to do it. The Japanese really doesn't have a need to spend the PPs other wise.

I am going to continue to play the game. I really like it. For an old fart, it keeps the brain active. I am just going to have some China and artillery HR. And please keep up the good work!

[dorjun driver]

People! People! It's simply that time of year! It doesn't really matter your race, religion, country of origin, sexual proclivities, &c, &c, &c. Let us just get along.

At least through Donkey Day, then you can all p*ss off![:)]

[Andy Mac]

nm

[pmelheck1]

I've pointed out several times issues with I feel exist with the AI.  I do not feel any type of bias toward Japan as I feel the AI in order to give a better game has gone from hidden cheat to in some cases blatent cheat.  I feel the AE team did a fantastic job and if you don't bring up issues they can't be addressed one way or the other.  As someone who has programmed I understand limitations on code and Artificial stupidity.  I did bring up issues because if you never ask it can't get better.  Sometimes folks seem to get a bit irate with items I bring up but I don't take anything personal from anyone they are stating their option which to me is a good thing. 

I still give kudos to the AE team for their hard and outstanding work.   Please don't let the critisism get to you.  I for one am very passionate about AE as it seems many others are.  Personally I would take great pride in creating someing that can create such passion.

T - I don't think the team approached AE every day with the thought "how can we hose the players" .  I do like the way it seems you look at the boards some times.  [:D][:D][:)][:)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I personally think there's a certain amount of jealousy involved, at least on the part of some of the whiners. The whole dev team was lifted from the forum, and there's obviously a number of forum posters who suffer from It-Shoulda-Been-Me-itis.

Perhaps nearly as many as the All-Too-Full-Of-Themselves-Itis sufferers who did get "lifted"!

That's a door that swings both ways and I'm happy to play the devil's advocate by reminding that it does.