"Tojo Edition"

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

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Kull
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

China is as important as the combination of actions of both players make it. The ressources that Japan has to invest to overrun China are so big that I started to suspect long ago if it isnt a better strategy to deploy those valuable units elsewhere and just clean up the front to prevent successful Chinese counterattacks.
Also the ammount of garrison required nearly outweights the advantage of not having a frontline (at least after initial conquests), and you can redeploy the units earlier.

What you are all talking about is that IF the Chinese player chooses to he CAN overrun China. But he needs to invest in a full blown campaign that eats up supplies (and ressources/fuel to replace those units) like a beast. We have not enough examples of what the impact is on late war but I quite sure the effect on other possible campaigns is negative on the long run and could even speed up the allied counteroffensive.

That's pretty much my feeling too. There seem to be a lot of lower level details that aren't playing out EXACTLY the same as they did in real life. But unless those "incorrect" details rise up to the level where they impact the strategic balance, then they really don't amount to much. Nobody wants to be playing "Fantasy in the Pacific", but a few ahistorical outliers are a small price to pay so long as they they don't impact the overall realities of the 1940s. Which were that, over time, the Allied Production Avalanche will ultimately overwhelm almost anything the Japanese do earlier in the game.

I have zero problems with folks pointing out questionable situations, but let's not turn ourselves into the Blind Men of India who touch one tiny aspect of the game and proclaim it a "wall" or a different part and insist it's a "snake" or a third part and proclaim it a "tree". All are small pieces of a vast whole, and need to be considered in that context.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Canoerebel »

Well said, Kull.  Your comments made me stop and think and I realize that I'm being too shrill.  I shall chill out a bit.  Thanks for the heads up.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: LoBaron

China is as important as the combination of actions of both players make it. The ressources that Japan has to invest to overrun China are so big that I started to suspect long ago if it isnt a better strategy to deploy those valuable units elsewhere and just clean up the front to prevent successful Chinese counterattacks.
Also the ammount of garrison required nearly outweights the advantage of not having a frontline (at least after initial conquests), and you can redeploy the units earlier.

What you are all talking about is that IF the Chinese player chooses to he CAN overrun China. But he needs to invest in a full blown campaign that eats up supplies (and ressources/fuel to replace those units) like a beast. We have not enough examples of what the impact is on late war but I quite sure the effect on other possible campaigns is negative on the long run and could even speed up the allied counteroffensive.

That's pretty much my feeling too. There seem to be a lot of lower level details that aren't playing out EXACTLY the same as they did in real life. But unless those "incorrect" details rise up to the level where they impact the strategic balance, then they really don't amount to much. Nobody wants to be playing "Fantasy in the Pacific", but a few ahistorical outliers are a small price to pay so long as they they don't impact the overall realities of the 1940s. Which were that, over time, the Allied Production Avalanche will ultimately overwhelm almost anything the Japanese do earlier in the game.

I have zero problems with folks pointing out questionable situations, but let's not turn ourselves into the Blind Men of India who touch one tiny aspect of the game and proclaim it a "wall" or a different part and insist it's a "snake" or a third part and proclaim it a "tree". All are small pieces of a vast whole, and need to be considered in that context.

And then there is also the aspect that this is in fact a game, and a game that is 100% predictable, 100% guaranteed to have 1 side always win, and 100% playing out exactly as the real war did is no longer a game, it's just a rehash of what I already know and its not fun. If I want to see a CG movie of the war playing out that is what History Channel is for, I want to see if I can do better.
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

And then there is also the aspect that this is in fact a game, and a game that is 100% predictable, 100% guaranteed to have 1 side always win, and 100% playing out exactly as the real war did is no longer a game, it's just a rehash of what I already know and its not fun. If I want to see a CG movie of the war playing out that is what History Channel is for, I want to see if I can do better.

But you can as Japan expand further than historical, decide on differant strategic directions and different policy. If the game allowed Japan to over run the USA mainland 50% of the time for a 'win' no-one would take it the least seriously. Allied production is a fact of life in any simulation of the pacific war so yes the Allies will always 'win' but as Japan can you make them 'win' in 46 rather than 45. thats the litmus paper of end game success imo.

Caveat - unless i completely missed the point of your post [;)]
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Shark7
And then there is also the aspect that this is in fact a game, and a game that is 100% predictable, 100% guaranteed to have 1 side always win, and 100% playing out exactly as the real war did is no longer a game, it's just a rehash of what I already know and its not fun. If I want to see a CG movie of the war playing out that is what History Channel is for, I want to see if I can do better.


The only way you can "do better" than your historical counterparts is if you face the same realities, challenges and restrictions as they did. Wanting to "do better" by inventing your own realities makes it sound like you watch the "History" Channel far too much... [:D]
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: Kull

Looking at this logically, you can clearly see the whole "debate" is essentially pointless:

Then why are you participating?
1) The land war in China is an aberration in the overall mechanics of a "War in the Pacific" game. It should be obvious to everyone that the devs spent their time - and rightfully so - in upgrading the coding of the Air-Naval-Amphib portions of the game. And they succeeded spectacularly, IMHO. Seriously. Anybody who compares AE to WitP and says those aspects are now worse is flat-out lying. Elimination of air carnage, island stacking restrictions, and near-real-life loading/unloading times are just a few examples among a host of similar logistics and warfare improvements, all of which put AE light years ahead of its predecessor.

I haven't seen anyone say that AE is overall worse in the Air/Naval/Amphib department. AE is an overall incremental improvement but it still has some real problems that (mostly) carried over from the original.

Land combat is pretty bad. It's always been pretty bad. Unfortunately ownership of every objective is determined through land combat so it can't just be ignored. AE is supposed to be a new game and I would expect land combat resolution to have been much more improved. There have been some nice improvements to help with supply and resting land units but the land combat itself remains a weak link. Which you apparently concede since you left it off the list above.
2) And that's important because, as in real life - the fate of China HAS NO STRATEGIC impact on the war. Go ahead and watch as Japan takes the whole thing (which probably isn't even possible, but let's accept the premise for a moment). What does Japan have? Answer: Absolutely nothing that will impede the cross-island onslaught from the USA. The war can only be won by preventing Allied conquest of the critical "island highway" leading straight at Japan. And every Manchurian Air Unit and all the "Artillery Death Stars" in the world won't keep that from happening.

This is simply untrue. Everything on the map is interrelated. The strategic impact if Japan takes all of China would alter every decision both sides made in game and IRL. The ridiculousness of such an event would also make many people think any historical wargame that easily allows it is utter crap.
3) So why - one must ask - is the debate focusing on an "over-powered" Japan? Simple. Admiral's Edition takes a long time to play and few of the complainers have played it long enough to see that all the Japanese success in '42 is ephemeral and fleeting. Whether the Allied player is facing the AI or a human, you WILL be taking it on the chops, and you WILL be taking it on the chops for MANY MONTHS of real-time game play! Is that frustrating as hell? You betcha. Which is just one more way in which the devs nailed the "real life" aspect of playing as the Allies in the early part of the war. Just like King and Nimitz and MacArthur, you'll feel angry and PO'd for a very long time. But just like they did, if you are patient and bear the blows and don't surrender (which, after all, was the real-life Japanese "war winning plan"), then you too will see the tide begin it's slow but inexorable turn. And it WILL turn.

It's absolutely no consolation that later in the game the weak game aspects will be in my favor. As for being frustrated just like Nimitz & King IRL. They wouldn't have just been frustrated, they'd have been replaced, if the war played out as it generally does in WitP. If voicing my displeasure on specific issues makes me a "complainer" or a "whiner" then so be it.
People need to understand - and I mean REALLY UNDERSTAND - that the devs had to make hundreds of thousands of things function perfectly here. And the end product of that is a game which mimics the real "War in the Pacific" to an amazing degree. And if there are some aspects which aren't "just so", well, that's what happens when you are building a massively complicated monster like this. What's surprising isn't that some things may be wrong - the REAL miracle is that so much of it is exactly RIGHT!

Besides, if we've learned anything from watching these guys work over the past few years, it's this: If it can be tweaked and improved, they will do it.

People need to understand - and I mean REALLY UNDERSTAND - that some of us aren't entirely thrilled with the product they purchased. There's no reason for anyone take that personally. Not the devs and especially not the peanut gallery.

I don't doubt the sincerity of all those who work so hard to make AE (and WitP before it) the best that it can be. Sadly all their hard work and good intentions mean nothing to me if I'm unable to enjoy the game.
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Kull
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: mjk428
I don't doubt the sincerity of all those who work so hard to make AE (and WitP before it) the best that it can be. Sadly all their hard work and good intentions mean nothing to me if I'm unable to enjoy the game.

And that's the crux of your entire argument. Because YOU don't enjoy it, the game sucks. Sorry Charlie, but from what I can see, most of us beg to differ.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: mjk428
I don't doubt the sincerity of all those who work so hard to make AE (and WitP before it) the best that it can be. Sadly all their hard work and good intentions mean nothing to me if I'm unable to enjoy the game.

And that's the crux of your entire argument. Because YOU don't enjoy it, the game sucks. Sorry Charlie, but from what I can see, most of us beg to differ.

Sorry Sparky but that's the crux of your argument. Because YOU enjoy it, the game is the greatest thing ever and those that disagree are whiners and complainers.

I've cited the areas where the game falls short for me. It's those shortcomings that cause me to not enjoy the game. You're willing to overlook them. I'm not.

BTW, please show me where I ever said AE "sucks". Otherwise don't put words in my mouth.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by stuman »

Good posts Kull.

And these discussions are important imo because it allows us to improve gameplay one way or another.

I will disagree mildly with Canoerebel ( a dedicated player , one whose posts I enjoy reading ) in that I think that the need for HRs is both expected if not actually required in most games like this. If for no other reasons than to represent some RL political considerations that are hard to ignore, or code. Or because playing partners have different perspectives , or because no game is ever perfect.

I like that AE is flexible as it is.
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LoBaron
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: mjk428
I don't doubt the sincerity of all those who work so hard to make AE (and WitP before it) the best that it can be. Sadly all their hard work and good intentions mean nothing to me if I'm unable to enjoy the game.

And that's the crux of your entire argument. Because YOU don't enjoy it, the game sucks. Sorry Charlie, but from what I can see, most of us beg to differ.

Sorry Sparky but that's the crux of your argument. Because YOU enjoy it, the game is the greatest thing ever and those that disagree are whiners and complainers.

I've cited the areas where the game falls short for me. It's those shortcomings that cause me to not enjoy the game. You're willing to overlook them. I'm not.

BTW, please show me where I ever said AE "sucks". Otherwise don't put words in my mouth.

Oh i see were back to constructive discussion. [8|]

Devs, please include this into patch 3!

I´m working with software fixes day by day and have quite an experience how a small change that should improve one detail can have
such a big impact on other processes that it renders the original fix useless. So everything you change you have to be very, very careful with.
The Dev team of AE had and have to work with the same source code they got with the stock game. It´s a HUGE modding effort and this effort is highly apprechiated by nearly everyone here.

mjk428 noone disagrees that the game does not simulate everything to perfection.
If this prevents you from enjoying the game then set it aside, play something else, or nothing, or suggest something constructive and doable. [;)]
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Buck Beach
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: mjk428



He was polite and accurate in his criticisms.

It's "jerkpimples" like you, Terminus & Mynok that make this forum for Fanbois Only.


Then why do you keep coming back?

I guess cause I paid for the game (twice now - three times counting UV) and still hold out hope that it will someday be worth all the time and money I spent.

BTW, I've also been here longer than all three of you unpleasant noobs. Maybe y'all should leave?




Oh I see so your a long timer and that makes you special around here. Well you might not have said "game sucks" but a rose by any other name, well you know. Well amigo (as in Sparky), I have been here two more years than you. I have 6 purchases from Matrix and purchased UV and the old Pac War in the 1st week they were released. So using your criteria of seniority, I feel I can offer this solution to you. Why don't you quit your whining, sell your game on Craigs or EBay, and go somewhere else where you (and we) will be happier.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


Oh i see were back to constructive discussion. [8|]

Devs, please include this into patch 3!

I´m working with software fixes day by day and have quite an experience how a small change that should improve one detail can have
such a big impact on other processes that it renders the original fix useless. So everything you change you have to be very, very careful with.
The Dev team of AE had and have to work with the same source code they got with the stock game. It´s a HUGE modding effort and this effort is highly apprechiated by nearly everyone here.

mjk428 noone disagrees that the game does not simulate everything to perfection.
If this prevents you from enjoying the game then set it aside, play something else, or nothing, or suggest something constructive and doable. [;)]

It's seems that when there are problems it's just a mod yet when it was being marketed it was "a brand new game". Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Full price brings full expectations.
Also, unless the software you work on each day is a publicly marketed entertainment product then you're comparing apples to oranges.

You might not be able to comprehend this but I don't take my marching orders from you. I will continue to discuss the problems I have with the game whenever I see fit. Matrix doesn't seem to mind, in fact they welcome specific criticisms. So why do you and others take it so personal?
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Terminus




Then why do you keep coming back?

I guess cause I paid for the game (twice now - three times counting UV) and still hold out hope that it will someday be worth all the time and money I spent.

BTW, I've also been here longer than all three of you unpleasant noobs. Maybe y'all should leave?




Oh I see so your a long timer and that makes you special around here. Well you might not have said "game sucks" but a rose by any other name, well you know. Well amigo (as in Sparky), I have been here two more years than you. I have 6 purchases from Matrix and purchased UV and the old Pac War in the 1st week they were released. So using your criteria of seniority, I feel I can offer this solution to you. Why don't you quit your whining, sell your game on Craigs or EBay, and go somewhere else where you (and we) will be happier.

Not at all. Termy seemed to think he could run me off and I just pointed out that I was here before him.

I don't give a rat's ass about you or how much you like the game. I surely have no incentive to make you happy.

Some more useless trivia: I was here since Matrix released Steel Panthers but had no reason to register until I bought UV. I registered in order to hopefully improve their new product. I've been buying Grigsby games since '82.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: mjk428
ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: mjk428




I guess cause I paid for the game (twice now - three times counting UV) and still hold out hope that it will someday be worth all the time and money I spent.

BTW, I've also been here longer than all three of you unpleasant noobs. Maybe y'all should leave?




Oh I see so your a long timer and that makes you special around here. Well you might not have said "game sucks" but a rose by any other name, well you know. Well amigo (as in Sparky), I have been here two more years than you. I have 6 purchases from Matrix and purchased UV and the old Pac War in the 1st week they were released. So using your criteria of seniority, I feel I can offer this solution to you. Why don't you quit your whining, sell your game on Craigs or EBay, and go somewhere else where you (and we) will be happier.

Not at all. Termy seemed to think he could run me off and I just pointed out that I was here before him.

I don't give a rat's ass about you or how much you like the game. I surely have no incentive to make you happy.

Some more useless trivia: I was here since Matrix released Steel Panthers but had no reason to register until I bought UV. I registered in order to hopefully improve their new product. I've been buying Grigsby games since '82.

Then suffer!
mjk428
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

I feel I can offer this solution to you. Why don't you quit your whining, sell your game on Craigs or EBay, and go somewhere else where you (and we) will be happier.

.

Then suffer!

Proving with every post that "Parrotfish" @ Wargamer was correct.
I wouldn't bother wasting my time on the matrix boards. If you post any criticism, you'll get smothered. You're going to have to live with what you get.

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Erik Rutins
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Erik Rutins »

That's enough folks, please back off and stop turning game discussions into personal conflict.

It's important to realize, as I noted earlier, that the WITP AE team is a bunch of regular guys who worked their butts off to create a new and quite professional game. They do not all have the thick skin that we here at Matrix have developed through experience. The development team is NOT monolithic and you'll get different responses from different guys. That's the way it is and I suggest we all accept that variety is the spice of life.

With that said, we don't take kindly to customers attacking developers or developers attacking customers. So keep it civil please, everyone.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
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LoBaron
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


Oh i see were back to constructive discussion. [8|]

Devs, please include this into patch 3!

I´m working with software fixes day by day and have quite an experience how a small change that should improve one detail can have
such a big impact on other processes that it renders the original fix useless. So everything you change you have to be very, very careful with.
The Dev team of AE had and have to work with the same source code they got with the stock game. It´s a HUGE modding effort and this effort is highly apprechiated by nearly everyone here.

mjk428 noone disagrees that the game does not simulate everything to perfection.
If this prevents you from enjoying the game then set it aside, play something else, or nothing, or suggest something constructive and doable. [;)]

It's seems that when there are problems it's just a mod yet when it was being marketed it was "a brand new game". Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Full price brings full expectations.
Also, unless the software you work on each day is a publicly marketed entertainment product then you're comparing apples to oranges.

You might not be able to comprehend this but I don't take my marching orders from you. I will continue to discuss the problems I have with the game whenever I see fit. Matrix doesn't seem to mind, in fact they welcome specific criticisms. So why do you and others take it so personal?

hm...

"This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play , improve realism,
and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive
WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!"

Could you point me to where it says "brand new game" please?

And sorry if you misunderstood me.
Just from personal experience I noticed that if I quit doing something that I don´t feel satisfying and I am not in the position to change then
the best solution is to do something else. No marching orders offered, and I do not take what you say personal. [:)]

You seem to be on a quest for the perfect faultless strategy game. This game is very close IMO - in fact its the best strategy game I have ever played,
if this is not true for you thats sad, I hope you will find it.

I just feel that the group of dedicated people who made this great improvement over the stock WitP possible deserve better than constant
and often unfair criticism of their work without any way of understanding how complicated these things are and I do like to express my opinion on such a topics.

Neither did I want to offend you nor was any offense taken.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


Oh i see were back to constructive discussion. [8|]

Devs, please include this into patch 3!

I´m working with software fixes day by day and have quite an experience how a small change that should improve one detail can have
such a big impact on other processes that it renders the original fix useless. So everything you change you have to be very, very careful with.
The Dev team of AE had and have to work with the same source code they got with the stock game. It´s a HUGE modding effort and this effort is highly apprechiated by nearly everyone here.

mjk428 noone disagrees that the game does not simulate everything to perfection.
If this prevents you from enjoying the game then set it aside, play something else, or nothing, or suggest something constructive and doable. [;)]

It's seems that when there are problems it's just a mod yet when it was being marketed it was "a brand new game". Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Full price brings full expectations.
Also, unless the software you work on each day is a publicly marketed entertainment product then you're comparing apples to oranges.

You might not be able to comprehend this but I don't take my marching orders from you. I will continue to discuss the problems I have with the game whenever I see fit. Matrix doesn't seem to mind, in fact they welcome specific criticisms. So why do you and others take it so personal?

hm...

"This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play , improve realism,
and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive
WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!"

Could you point me to where it says "brand new game" please?

And sorry if you misunderstood me.
Just from personal experience I noticed that if I quit doing something that I don´t feel satisfying and I am not in the position to change then
the best solution is to do something else. No marching orders offered, and I do not take what you say personal. [:)]

You seem to be on a quest for the perfect faultless strategy game. This game is very close IMO - in fact its the best strategy game I have ever played,
if this is not true for you thats sad, I hope you will find it.

I just feel that the group of dedicated people who made this great improvement over the stock WitP possible deserve better than constant
and often unfair criticism of their work without any way of understanding how complicated these things are and I do like to express my opinion on such a topics.

Neither did I want to offend you nor was any offense taken.


I feel that you are to kind with your approach to someone that is unapproachable. While I will leave it alone and back off, ala Erik, I feel it is futile to try a stroking move with this individual.

I calls them likes I sees them.
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by vicberg »

The Soviets and Japanese kept enough forces to deter war. Neither side knew the exact amount that was needed. The problem in AE is that the players know EXACTLY how many forces are needed, down to the man.

I believe a simple solution, that won't require major coding changes, is to hide and randomize the garrison requirement number. Make the garrision requirement a random number, each game, landing somehwere between 8000-11000. The number isn't visible to either player. Normal Soviet activation then applies.

The japanese player may pull troops at any point, but always runs a risk.

I personally don't believe that the air power or arty, by itself, will make a major difference in the war. It's the troops. No need to put major coding changes in for air and arty.
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: "Tojo Edition"

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

ORIGINAL: vicberg

The Soviets and Japanese kept enough forces to deter war. Neither side knew the exact amount that was needed. The problem in AE is that the players know EXACTLY how many forces are needed, down to the man.

I believe a simple solution, that won't require major coding changes, is to hide and randomize the garrison requirement number. Make the garrision requirement a random number, each game, landing somehwere between 8000-11000. The number isn't visible to either player. Normal Soviet activation then applies.

The japanese player may pull troops at any point, but always runs a risk.

I personally don't believe that the air power or arty, by itself, will make a major difference in the war. It's the troops. No need to put major coding changes in for air and arty.


Thats EVIL and also a do-able solution. Take the risk or don't its Japans choice and they may get lucky. However i can see one game killing potential problem with it. Japanese PBEM player pulls what he likes from Manchiria and soviets activate early then he bails .. no fun for either player. Conversely he could pull troops from manchuria and decimate china (note i didnt say conquer) then the allied player whines and bails.

Personally i believe manchuria could and should be left as it is and dealt with as a house rule in PBEM. As i stated in another post this still allows both players to choose if they want a stronger Japan in china (maybe a gloves off and anything goes game) I firmly believe that Devs shouldnt restrict player choices to what was just historical as a lot of players like a certain amount of what if possibilities. Thats the reasoning behind the 'no withdrawls' button too, more toys for both sides.

also AMEN Eric. lets try and keep on topic can we please. Actually scrub on topic , its already moved on [;)]
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
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