Autumn Fog Playtesters Thread

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the aircraft situation for the Allies on turn 16 round 2:

[larryfulkerson]

Hex 65,20 has a problemo. I have two infantry units adjacent to a German broken bridge hex and neither one of them can attack. So there's no way to reclaim the hex except for maybe arty / air bombardment and that would take forever, especially if the German dude keeps replacing the attacked unit. ???

EDIT: hex 64,26 has the same problemo.

[sPzAbt653]

I have two infantry units adjacent to a German broken bridge hex and neither one of them can attack.

They are Infantry units, but they are not 'foot' movement units. The US Infantry Divisions are organized into three Regimental Combat Teams. Typically two RCT's are motorized/mixed, and one RCT is foot movement. You can tell by the icon.

[larryfulkerson]

Turn 16: there was very little movement relatively speaking.  The Allies made a boat load of attacks
this turn and gained about 1.3 hexes so it appears that this game has entered the grind phase.  The German
fighters stayed on the ground this turn to rest, refuel, and refit.  The Allied bombers concentrated on the
German arty and each attack destroyed about 2.5 tubes so it will be a long process to destroy them that way.
The Allies are running into hexes that can't be attacked even by infantry and that is frustrating to say the
least.  XXX corps has units that are still in garrison mode and can't be used.  All the arty on both sides is
making ground gaining a really slow process for both sides.  Now I know why there are 100 turns to this
scenario.  Turn 16's moves map can be found at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?1y2mnmzolmn

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
They are Infantry units, but they are not 'foot' movement units.

Oh. Right. It's been a long night can you tell. Thanks for clearing that up.

[sPzAbt653]

XXX corps has units that are still in garrison mode and can't be used.

Each of the XXX Corps divisions is tied to a Meuse crossing. If the Germans threaten the crossing, the defending division will be released.

I've scrapped all this in the current revision. This means that in the new version, most of XXX Corps will be available (once triggered) for use anywhere. This isn't really historic, but what else can be done? House Rule [:@] ? So far what I've got is XXX Corps is released if the Germans advance into the Weert/Sittard area (at the north part of the map), or if German units approach to within a few hexes of the Meuse anywhere from Maastricht to Charleroi.

I take pains on this matter for two reasons. First is the fact that Monty did not want XXX Corps moving south of the Meuse for any reason (51st Inf and 29th Arm did move a little east of the Dinant position). Second is the idea that in the scenario, just as the Germans are gaining a breakthrough at Bastogne, XXX Corps shows up to stop them. This could happen anywhere on the map, and it doesn't seem appropriate.

[larryfulkerson]

Hey you guys:

I just discovered that even if you break up one of those engineer units the engineering capability is still great. I wish I had known that at the beginning of the game....I would have broken up all those bad boys and had many many more capable engineer units. Cool.

[larryfulkerson]

In turn 17 I gained a hex !   But so did Patrick, so it's a wash.  Um........the combats are so un-bloody that unless you get a unit surrounded it's sorta hard to really destroy it I've discovered.  Patrick is going to destroy my small units in the far north before I can get some more units up there.  He's creaping closer and closer to Bastone and reinforcements aren't going to get there in time either.  But maybe I can bust some bridges and slow him down some.  It's just a thought.  You can find the turn 17 moves map at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nzy3vhecqfm

[Abnormalmind]

End of Axis 18: Bastogne Sector

Since the last time the Axis made this post, certain new development occurred. High command ordered the 2nd SS, 17th SS, and 2nd Panzer to continue pressing towards Bastogne supported by the 277 Volksgrenadier Div, and the 4th and 7th FJDs.

The red area to the east is a large pocket of fortified Americans. Their days are numbered. The US supply lines appears cut and the savior bridge blown, but not by me.

The 9th and 12th SS were pulls off the line and sent back to reconstitute. It's take them a while. They got their mouth smashed hard leading the assault towards Bastogne.

[larryfulkerson]

I may be premature and I'm not sure but I'm thinking the tide may have turned.  I succeeded in pushing back the Axis horde in several spots.  Those planes in Combat Support are working overtime and really making a difference.  Maybe it's because Patrick pulled some Panzers off the front lines or something but I'm seeing smaller Axis units on the front lines facing me.  He is still adjacent to Bastone but I'm thiniking I can possibly hold on to it at least for another turn, maybe two.  I got some more reinforcements and they should start showing up at the front lines in a turn or two so we'll see what happens then.  Turn 18's moves map can be found at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/?mwmg2lzgjzg

[cesteman]

Playing the AI right now. So far I'm not impressed. The AI is bypassing all the blown bridges.

[larryfulkerson]

Patrick and I have agreed to cease this game as "not fun anymore" and start another...this time with me as the Axis and he as the Allies. Plus we've come up with some house rules that make sense to me.

House rules:
(1) Aircraft can only be used in the CS role or to attack bridges and airfields. No direct attacks on enemy arty or ground units.
(2) Arty can only be used in "T" or "L" mode to assist in combats "normally". No direct attacks on enemy arty or ground units ( or planes ).
(3) No unit can move onto a bridge that was repaired that turn.
(4) Whenever a mechanized ( or motorized unit I suppose ) finds itself on a broken bridge for any reason it must be moved off of it as soon as possible.

The turns in August Fog are 1/2 days and it would probably take engineers about that long to repair a bridge, I'm thinking...so that rule makes sense to me.

I've put together an attack plan to depict what I intend to do, pending Steve's permission of course, and I'll post it here but not embed it in my post since it's top secret to Patrick. You know what to do if you want to see it but please remember it's classified to Patrick until it's intel is no longer fresh. Say around turn, oh I don't know, turn 50 or so. It will probably take that long for me to get into position. LOL. *Patrick* I'll let you know when it's no longer classified to you.

So um........I'm going to use the honor system on you guys and hope you won't let the cat out of the bag by something you guys might post here. Deal?

EDIT: The intel is no longer fresh so I'm embedding it in my post so everybody can see it.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: cesteman

Playing the AI right now. So far I'm not impressed. The AI is bypassing all the blown bridges.

Excellent! Which side are you? What do you mean the AI is bypassing blow bridges? How are the blown bridges being bypassed?

[cesteman]

I am playing as the Allies and he's still able to slaughter me. I meant the two bridges west of Bastone that start the game blown. Sorry for the confusion. I'm on turn 4 now and he's steam rolling me right down the middle where there's non opposition. Northern flank is getting beat up but the southern has seen no action right now.

[sPzAbt653]

... the two bridges west of Bastone that start the game blown.

I don't think there are any bridges west of Bastogne that start the game blown. [&:]

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Elmer is whoopin' you. He's pretty good at figuring stuff out, and he's chased me all the way back to the Meuse a couple times.

[larryfulkerson]

I think he meant to say East of bastogne.

[cesteman]

Yes east, it was late

[Abnormalmind]

The scenario is a lot of fun!!! Play testing requires a different set of lenses, that's all. I got my face kicked in by Larry, which is fine, and it's time to redo to test alternatives. I played this scenario along the lines of Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein for which I was richly rewarded with a sound defeat. Play testing does not involve winning or losing, rather the overall intent of the scenario designer versus the results in a head to head game. PBEM is far different than playing Elmer.

I'll post my losses in a minute.

Thanks,
Abnormalmind

[Abnormalmind]

Start of Turn 18: Axis Losses

Approximately 25 percent of Axis infantry was lost and armor losses were around 10 percent. I played a very conservative air campaign netting approximately 8 percent loss. The Allied artillery ripped through my ranks, and was nicely organized in "banks" behind Larry's line. At one point I counted no less than 12 artillery batteries west of Malmedy. He had many other batteries throughout the game, and placed strategically in front of the Axis advance or cleverly off to the flanks. Axis artillery losses were around 3 percent, well within the replacement cycle.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
The scenario is a lot of fun!!!

I think so too. The combat results are so unbloody compared to D21 or FITE that it seems more realistic to me. And the map is pretty. Steve Sill has done a really good job on this one and I'm glad he is letting Patrick and I playtest it. My initial feeling is that it's maybe kinda imbalanced against the German player though since in our game XXX corps didn't come out of garrison mode and I was STILL able to hold back the Axis horde with the troops that I did have. It can't be because of my superior playing skills because I've never won a FITE game playing PBEM against anybody playing either side Axis or Soviet. So I'm no expert.

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
Play testing requires a different set of lenses, that's all.

Yeah, I agree. I'm keeping maticulus notes and saving all the turns before I hit the button to start the combats and keeping track of the losses etc. All that info may help Steve diagnose something someday.

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
I got my face kicked in by Larry, which is fine, and it's time to redo to test alternatives.

I didn't mean to kick Patrick's face in. It was an accident. Besides he was doing great in the beginning moves....I was scrambling to find enough units to form a front line and several times I thought to myself 'okay right here's where he won the game'. Patrick's tactics were fine and he used his arty / ground units like I would have and I have no complaints about his game play. I think maybe we discovered a game breaker where I would move an engineer unit onto a broken bridge, repair the bridge, move a really strong mechanized unit onto the fixed bridge and then blow the bridge so that only foot units could attack it. Makes for a really strong roadblocker. Something like that would be great for the Soviets in FITE. Patrick is a good player, the odds were stacked against him. The same thing would have happened to me if I were the Axis....which is what we're about to find out now that I'm playing the Axis side.

ORIGINAL: Abnormalmind
PBEM is far different than playing Elmer.

Correct. Elmer does some 'strange' things sometimes and shoots himself in the foot frequently. Plus, he doesn't blow bridges in front of my advances, doesn't repair bridges when it's advantagous ( advantagous ? how do you spell that ? ), and from what I could observe in D21 doesn't blow bridges with his aircraft which any good player would do when it's called for. I love PBEM, it's a LOT more realistic and the opposite player feedback is much more detailed. LOL.