National Graphics

[Capitaine]

The game looks great and I look forward to it. There's one little thing that sort of gets to me though, and it's the display of national graphical symbology. In recent years, German forces have been depicted not by the swastika, but by an iron cross and a black/red/white tricolor flag. I recognize this as a modern development largely employed due to Germany's prohibition of the swastika in "toys". At some levels, this is acceptable because it's just German army units involved. In my opinion, here it isn't.

Historically, this struggle was about Nazism vs. Soviet Communism to the leaders and participants. It was a fight to the death and the political nature of the war colored every facet, every decision. I'm sure the Soviets will have their red star or hammer and sickle flag, but the swastika is missing. Back in the day, companies like Avalon Hill didn't mince their history and suppress the Nazi emblem. I bear no love for it, clearly, but I'm dedicated to historical precision and it behooves history fans and students to remember that this war was Nazis vs. Soviets, first and foremost.

Ideally, a special German edition could be made that excluded the Nazi flag/symbol, using the graphics currently in the game. The rest of us could have the historically correct German Nazi flag. Alternatively, perhaps the designers could have a patch or mod available at release that would replace the iron cross thing with Nazi symbols in the interface.

I am above politics on this; I don't really care. I do care about history and a game of this gravity and importance should not be hobbled by political correctness and fear of historical accuracy. It won't affect the play of the game, obviously, but it will affect the ambience as every time I look at the phony flag and symbol, I will be reminded of the foolishness that caused it.

I would be gratified to see artistic freedom and history respected in this title, and not have the truth of the conflict hidden behind supposedly innocuous symbology.

[paullus99]

Political correctness is what it is. Based on marketing & making money, I doubt you'll be seeing swatstikas in any game, any time soon.

It just isn't acceptable, regardless of the media.

[Joel Billings]

You won't see a swastika in the official release of the game. However, the art is easily modable. Currently there are two small files that contain the German symbol, and these could easily be replaced by modified files.

[Capitaine]

I understand Joel. As I don't have the talent, I would request that official mods (or unofficial, yet done by the guy who did the existing game art) be provided for those of us who want to experience the brutality of historical fact. [;)]

As I suggested, having a reminder of the political stakes in this war would add greatly to our immersion and enjoyment of the subject. I'm not a swastika fanatic, just a history buff who likes things straight and undiluted.

[Silvanski]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You won't see a swastika in the official release of the game. However, the art is easily modable. Currently there are two small files that contain the German symbol, and these could easily be replaced by modified files.

Map and unit graphics are some of the frequently user modified things in games like this... see TOAW and HOI

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You won't see a swastika in the official release of the game. However, the art is easily modable. Currently there are two small files that contain the German symbol, and these could easily be replaced by modified files.

Map and unit graphics are some of the frequently user modified things in games like this... see TOAW and HOI

Yes, I actually was thinking of HOI, which had a Nazi flag set mod available as soon as the game was published. That's what I'm looking for here.

[Capitaine]

BTW, isn't it farcical that a historical game about a war instigated by and fought by Nazis cannot display the emblem of Nazism in today's climate? This just rankles me to no end. What's next, no Confederate battle flag in Civil War games? Surely that emblem is more often used today as a modern political statement than the swastika, which is the definition of evil.

[Joel Billings]

Talk to the German government, and probably a few others in Europe. We don't have swastikas because of them. I'm with you, I'd rather see them, and it would not be an issue in the US. I just heard David Brooks (I usually like his commentary) say that we have to give the Germans more time to get over their instinctive reluctance not to want to participate in military actions (re Afghanistan) since with WWI, WWII and the Holocaust being just 65 years old, that is a very short time frame in the cultural history of a people. They've done pretty well in the past 65 years considering where they've come from, and their absorbing of East Germany has been a huge extra burden, so I'll cut them some slack. It took us 100-150 years to get over our Civil War, and that was nothing compared to early 20th Century Europe (well, maybe it was something for the south relative to percentage of population effected and general damage done). Sorry, getting down from my soapbox now.

[Rhetor]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Political correctness is what it is. Based on marketing & making money, I doubt you'll be seeing swatstikas in any game, any time soon.

It just isn't acceptable, regardless of the media.

What is really annoying is that such political correctness does not apply to Soviet hammer and sickle.

[Lützow]

Joel hit the nail and I may add that Germans don't embrace censorship either and wouldn't value some kind of 'limited edition' for the local market. If a game is censored, people rather pick the original and tend to ignore localized versions.

By depicting historical correct symbols Matrix could cause serious trouble for people importing their boxed games and even if those products were solely offered as download, some overzealous news magazine would discover it sooner or later and in this case German government had to take action. However, if you deliver an easy modable game and leave possible changes to customers discretion, authorities don't feel impelled to interfere since it's not publicly. Same double standard applies to HoI 3, which can be sold from vendor shelves as 'geostrategic simulation', even a large lot of gamers use it to conquer the world with Gemany. This policy is ridiculous but it works as long as everybody can keep his eyes closed about violation of political correctness and pretend it would not happen.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Political correctness is what it is. Based on marketing & making money, I doubt you'll be seeing swatstikas in any game, any time soon.

It just isn't acceptable, regardless of the media.

it is not the media, it is the law

now what is silly with that, is it is against the law to sell something with the Swastika in it, but it is okay to let somebody download and use it

so, if I was to make a game, that may be sold in Germany, I can't include the Swastika, as it is against the law, but, once you buy it, you can come to me and download all of the Swastika art you want to play it ??????

also, it is a strange law, you can not show it/ sell it, unless it is a piece of art

(a Artist can paint a picture of a Bf 109 with the Swastika on it, and it is okay, but you can't sell a model of that 109, or a game with that 109 in it)

[Lützow]

Not as silly if you consider the underlying idea to ban nazi symbols from public for obvious reasons, unless it would be in conjunction with historical documentations of course. So while law forbids to show, acquire or distribute the swastika, people are still allowed to own this sign in privacy, as long as they don't aim to utilize it for propaganda purposes. When the law got introduced, the Internet did not exist and so there is no precedent yet, to deal with subsequently added imagery. Should somebody actually strive for a lawsuit sometime, German authorities may feel enforced to prohibit download of graphic mods as well, while they still can't deny people to create it for themselves. Anyway, this case is unlikely to happen in regard to the small niche which would be concerned.

Having said that, it's still better to not wake sleeping dogs. There are no women on the internet and even if so, we would keep silent about.

[Hard Sarge]

True and agree,

but I think the reason behind it is not as they state, the artist and the people who would be buying the artworks, are the people with money and in the higher reaches of the people, so got to cater to them, they are not a danger, it is the lower level people that can not be trusted with these images, so they must be protected from themselfs

which, it may be even more interesting, if they look at most of the people who passed these laws, how many of them wore the emble they want to suppress

[Lützow]

Even an artist would make acquaintance with German court if he offers his artwork to the public. The only nazi stuff which can legally be traded here are originals from the past.

This twisted situation, where one is allowed to possess something but not necessarily to obtain it, becomes only understandable if you keep in mind that the according law had to take legacy into consideration and therewith all the heirlooms which were still in circulation. Since government could hardly remove all the books, uniform pieces, medals or family photos from private households, they imposed a public ban but not a private one.

[Cavalry Corp]

In all HPS PZC games all the art modes have the Nazi stuff, it was part of the identity of the nation at that point ( for bad or good ) even if the majority in the Army were not members of the party.
Funny old world though were the Soviet symbols are allowed without question something to do with the left creeping over society I thinks ...

lOOK at Hard sarge post above I see a little something there !!!!!!!!

Cav

[Hard Sarge]

yea, but mine is not for sale