MARIANAS SCENARIO v1 NOW PLAYABLE

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Ships for Guam

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/US ... uam-V.html

Why didnt they do this for Saipan & Tinian!!

Wow, that is an overwhelming force. I would hate to see all of that coming at me as a Jap. player !

On the recent TV documentary, "WWII in HD" the narrator noted that the Marianas invasion force consisted of over 800 ships, and covered a block of ocean 20 miles x 30 miles while in transit. It was nearly as large as the D-Day force, and close in calendar time, but D-Day got all the press coverage.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Ships for Guam

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/US ... uam-V.html

Why didnt they do this for Saipan & Tinian!!

Wow, that is an overwhelming force. I would hate to see all of that coming at me as a Jap. player !

On the recent TV documentary, "WWII in HD" the narrator noted that the Marianas invasion force consisted of over 800 ships, and covered a block of ocean 20 miles x 30 miles while in transit. It was nearly as large as the D-Day force, and close in calendar time, but D-Day got all the press coverage.

It bogles the mind to think about the logistics involved, and to think the Allies were pulling off both of those invasions at almost the same time.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: stuman




Wow, that is an overwhelming force. I would hate to see all of that coming at me as a Jap. player !

On the recent TV documentary, "WWII in HD" the narrator noted that the Marianas invasion force consisted of over 800 ships, and covered a block of ocean 20 miles x 30 miles while in transit. It was nearly as large as the D-Day force, and close in calendar time, but D-Day got all the press coverage.

It bogles the mind to think about the logistics involved, and to think the Allies were pulling off both of those invasions at almost the same time.

Yeah, and done with manual typewritters, Morse code, hand-carried dispatch bags, and briefing slides hand-drawn by artists. Yet they managed to do major invasions on average about every 60-90 days for about two years in the PTO.

I know the situations are different, but we're going to need the better part of a year to get 30,000 guys and gear into Afghanistan. The effort put forth to win WWII was amazing.

[stuman]

It makes one appreciate all of those " back room " types doing the typing etc. Not glamorous, but so necessary.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: stuman

It makes one appreciate all of those " back room " types doing the typing etc. Not glamorous, but so necessary.

That same documentary had another stat that I knew in numbers, but not in the verbal comparison.

In 1940, when we instituted the peace-time draft (first time I think,) our army was smaller than Romania's.

Five years later over 17 million men and women had served in uniform, and millions more in non-uniformed, direct military support jobs other than manufacturing or farming. This out of a population of about 130 million. Take away the kids, the elderly, most women, and men over 40 and you can see what the odds were of your serving if you were a young man. There is no other American experience close to WWII in its total involvement by the population. Not even the Civil War.

[moonraker65]

And also goes to show that the Allies could never have won without American involvement.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Bump still awaiting feedback on latest update if anyone has had time to play

Andy:

I loaded the newest version and it looks much better. I didn't play it "correctly" as what I wanted was to fool around with mid-1944 Air groups and see how they do with Hellcats, fighter coordination, the better attack planes, etc. I made up a big USN Air group and went hunting a Marianas Turkey shoot. Because of that I never even loaded up any LCUs, or sent out subs, etc. However, I did notice a few things.

1. The situation in the Gilberts seems a little odd, with the Allies in control of every island, but no forward deployed naval forces at all. I don't want to give away the initial set up, but the IJN forces there were "interesting."

2. I set up the bombers as Naval Search, in the Gilberts, and at Pearl, and they IMMEDIATLEY tagged several I-boats with detection levles that gave me an icon. Maybe it's the 1944 training levels, but it was unlike anything I've seen in my AI game in May 1943. So, second turn, I slapped together two 4-DD ASW groups at Pearl, set big reaction ranges (6 I think) and a patrol zone around the icons. In six ASW attacks I got THREE confirmed sinkings in the next couple of turns. Again, I assume those DDs had terminal ASW upgrades and high experience (I didn't look; I just took the four at the top of the stack in the TF screen) but I've never had something like that happen. Did you tweak ASW somehow, or is it all experience-based behavior? It was actually way too easy to neutralize the I-boat threat.

3. I had auto-sub ops turned on, but the Allied code only formed two sub TF at PH in about six weeks of turns, and neither ever left the PH hex. Is that a script thing, or something else? As above, I wasn't really playing the scenario for real, but if I had been the sub war would have been completely manual.

4. Can't speak to the IJN AI scripts too much. The Air TF I was fighting maneuvered, searched, and attacked well. It continued to attack even when its air groups were down to 1-3 torpedo bombers per strike. Is there any way for it to strategically retreat off-map? I went into the Japanese home hex (near Yap; don't recall the spelling of that "B" island in the group) with a huge surface TF of BBs and CAs to see how a slugging match with the Yamato and friends would go, and it didn't retreat three other TFs of small boys (mostly Es and PBs with some AKs). I sank them all without getting dinged once, then had a huge shoot-out with the big boys. No rational player would ever do what I did, as I ignored the Marianas completely, so I'm not sure how much scripting needs to be done to protect the flanks, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Overall, it's coming along. I hope that we get some folks trying it out over the holidays. You can play it in an afternoon if you don't obsess over turns. The time limits you put in seem about right. You can get it done, but you can't dwaddle over logistics build-ups.

[Andy Mac]

Thanks for the feedback I didnt tweak the sub AI at all so suprised it didnt work I will take a look

I wont be doing more tweaks until next week.

The Allied forward deployed ofrces should probably just be aux's a few xAK convoys and some PT boats the reason nothing else is forward deployed is because I have no idea what was where !!!

[rnj1]

Hi Andy,

It's possible that I've missed something but best I can tell Wasp II (CV-18) is missing. No doubt at all that the US is supposed to have 7 fleet carriers and I only count 6.

Thanks for the scenario. A great place to learn the ins and outs of managing a big fleet without any distractions.

[rnj1]

Incidentally I've been trying to track down the commanding officers of the major units.

CVs:

Yorktown: Jennings
Hornet: Sample
Wasp: Clifton Sprague
Bunker Hill: Jeter
Lexington: Litch
Enterprise: Gardner
Essex: Ofstie

BBs:
Washington: Cooley
North Carolina: Thomas
Indiana: Jennings
Iowa: McCrea
New Jersey: Holden
Alabama: Kirtland

Haven't found South Carolina's. I know it wasn't Gatch any longer and I know Swede Momsen (yes that Momsen) took command later, but it's one of the ships I haven't found a list of commanding officers (yet)

[Andy Mac]

Thanks unfortunaltey my laptop was in the car boot so I lost it and am now back at home and will try to get this scenario finished over the next coupke of weeks.

I have Thomas's air stuff to put in and then its mostly AI stuff to work on

[Andy Mac]

OK I am back at my desk I have the pukka air files now from Thomas so this weekend I will be revisiting this scenario to try and get it into decent shape and get the AI working.

So any feedback would be welcome.

I even know what I want to do for my next scenario just for a laugh so I need to get this finished so I can get to work on the next one!!!!

So any feedback I recieve in next 24 hours should make it into v2 of the scenario

I also want to get a more detailed Jap AI up and running so feedback would be good

[rnj1]

Good to hear Andy.

Is the absence of the 5th Fleet HQ intentional?

Geiger should be in command of the 3rd Amphib. (Yes, it's easy enough to put him in command, but he already had the job)

I think the various HQs tasked for Saipan and Guam should have higher levels of readiness. They were well prepared.

There seems to be a shortage of seabees -- though it's of no great import given the scenario. But what are there should be at full strength.

I assume the pukka air files will address the carrier air groups, but just for the record in terms of quality of fighter squadron it looks to me like it should go Essex (VF-15, 5 of the top naval aces, 26 of the group made ace), Hornet(VF-2, 28 aces though only one leading ace), Cabot(VF-31, 14 aces, 3 leading aces), Princeton (VF-27) and the rest.

Thanks again for putting this all together.

[JeffroK]

Andy,

Excellent work.

I've played about 3 weeks worth and while I control Saipan  have yet to clear the island.

Couple of queries.

The IJN start with a Kavieng Invasion TF at Truk & Makin Invasion TF at Jaluit. IMHO, these are from the base scenario that need to be cleared
because they ony have 1-2 ships, the database has the rest of the ships sunk by this date.

There are Midget sub carry subs off the HI at start, are these also from the base data.

4th Marines seem to have landed at Rangoelap by helicopter, they have to capture the base then get lifted back off to be used. WAD or the wrong start location?

IMHO, subject to a look at the data, the USN pilot skills are a bit low and the IJNAF skills a bit high. Is relying on the random experience generator a bit off at this time of the war?? I mnaged to splash about 400 IJAAF aircraft for about 40 losses, but the IJNAF managed about 1:1 and got a lot of attackers through to the CV TF's and hit the Big E with 3 torps, the day after I took Saipan so its now safely in harbour.

Add this to the CD system not working, it looks like every CD unit gets a chance to shoot at every landing craft in turn, rather thn splitting the availale guns amongst the available targets. Are the results in this game at the extreme, nuc subs v nerfed subs, nuc CD v nerfed CD???

Not too worried if this was the only turn, but it happens for too long.

Pre-Invasion action off Saipan - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

132 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho, Shell hits 8
DD Fullam
xAK Antoine Saugrain, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Admiral Wiley, Shell hits 2
LCI(G)-82, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-81, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-80, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-79, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-78, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-77, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-76, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCI-70
LCI-69, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
LCI-68
LCI-67, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-66, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCI-65, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-64, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-61, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-444, Shell hits 2
LCI-443, Shell hits 5

Japanese ground losses:
504 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)



BB New Mexico firing at 43rd Division
BB Idaho firing at Saipan Naval Fortress
DD Fullam firing at 150th Infantry Regiment
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAK Antoine Saugrain at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAK Admiral Wiley at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
LCI(G)-82 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-81 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-81 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-81 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-81 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-80 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-79 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-78 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-77 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-76 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
LCI-70 firing at enemy troops
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-70 at 1,000 yards
LCI-69 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
LCI-68 firing at enemy troops
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-68 at 1,000 yards
LCI-67 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
LCI-66 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-66 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-66 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-66 at 1,000 yards
LCI-65 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
LCI-64 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
LCI-61 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft


The game has rules that handle atoll combat, short, sharp, bloody.

But nothing that handles the combat on the larger 1 hex islands where it might take weeks to clear out the enemy. Until you capture the base, all of the CD units can still fire on your transports, even though IRL their immobile positions could have been taken by the attackers. Just another conundrum for the WITP XXXXIIII programmers to ponder over. (Each hex has a tactical map @ 1000yds hex and you play each land battle there!!!)

[Andy Mac]

OK will do

[rnj1]

Andy,

Most ship commands don't matter a lot, but CA (Ziggy) Sprague is a fairly useful leader.

He's listed as an admiral commanding PT-74. At this point he should be commanding the Wasp.

Again, no biggie.

And still more thanks.

[Andy Mac]

I suspect leaders are going to be a bit of a pain I will try to get them as right as I can.

sqns are just place holsders I am reding them now with lower Japanese xp ansd higher USN as part of it when I get proper air in there.

4th Marines probably wrong location

I am looking at prep levels for the next update as well US units will start fully prepped

[rjopel]

I was just reading Morison Vol VIII on the US Navy Marianas and it says that most of the combat fleets loaded out in the Majuro Atoll, which along with Kwajalein and Eniwetok. I think major surface and support echelons as well as supply and fuel need to be moved from Pearl to this islands.

Also it looks like none of the 42, 43 or 44 squad upgrades have taken place yet for the allies (haven't looked at the IJN).

[JeffroK]

I've played it through to a point where I have Saipan, Tinian & Guam and sent a CV raid off to Babelthaub.

The ground war plays out well, took about a week to take Saipan base and another week too clear the Island, Tinian fell pretty quick and Guam in about a week.
Its a lot better when LBA can help out and the invasion fleet bases from 1-2 hexes away.

FOW works well, I thought I had sunk 2 x IJN CVL's and damaged 2 x CV. I checked and all IJN CV & CVL's had been sunk, plus the IJN claimed Enterprise which after a kami & 3 torps is at about 30flot damage in Saipan Harbour.

Little thoughts.
US CV's Sqns should start at 100%
IMHO, US exp pts should be set manually rather than allow for the random generator
Active aircraft types should have a starting pool, and the B29 not be available in the scenario.
As mentioned, the Invasion fleet loading out of Oahu, from memory, the Divisions came from a number of bases, I'm sure its in the "CMH Green Books"

All minor tweaks.

The game has suspense, with a bit of work on the japanese AI the US could have to be very careful about covering its flanks and rear to the IJN CV approach. maybe tweak up the IJA force stregths, just a little easy to take the islands, make it a real
nailbiter.

Andy, other thoughts for your time and efforts, Burma 43-45, The Gilberts Campaign & The Phillipines campiagn.

You'll have plenty of time while snowed in this winter.

[Andy Mac]

Squad upgrades are next on my list I have most of the air units now done I need a little more time to get eh US CV;s done

Loading out of somewhere like Majuro is going to be to tough on the Allied AI so I will stage everything from PH

Thanks for running through it Jeffk

I have upped the Japanese fort levels slightly and increased the starting supplies at Tinian especially.

I will fix aircraft pools before I do the next version - probably tomorrow night my time.

I think once I get this one up and running I feel like doign a small what if scenario - historical ones are to hard in terms of research.

I think I will do a 3 month ish battle of NZ type scenario where Midway was a draw and Coral Sea a defeat for the USN - try and do a real Cruiser battle where the Japanese start woning PM/New Cal and can either go south to NZ to win or East to Suva.

Make it an RN/RAN plus USN Cruisers v IJN perhaps with a couple of heavy units with Carriers only arriving as reinforcements and not in decisive numbers - you know they are all still damaged from exhanging blows at midway.

Anyway I think thats going to be my next project after I get this one finsihed