ALLIED ONLY: aztez (A) vs erstad (J) ...2nd ROUND

[Graymane]

I'm not a fan of either of those plans.

• Moose/Kuriles - I don't think this has great strategic value in the long run. It is closer to his home islands than your nearest ports. The best you can do is build up Adak to a level 8 port. It also isn't going to make him overcommit to anything as he has interior lines and this is very close to his home base.
• Bulldog/Samoa - This is exactly what he is expecting and waiting for you to do. Taking is going to cause to expend a lot of effort for something you already owned. Its only strategic value is as a shorter journey for your convoys to the SW pacific. But it is clear this isn't going to be the decisive theatre any longer as you've already lost the Solomons and surrounding areas.

I think your best bet at this point is to attack directly into the central pacific. I think the Marshalls are your best bet. You have a number of atols you can take, there is no way he has strong garrisons everywhere there. You can bring a lot more troops to bear than he can I think. Taking the Marshalls gives you local interior lines. From there you can threaten the carolines, marianas, gilberts, solomons and back down to the south pacific to fiji and the samoas. Taking those forces a response there or a pullback and strengthening of the marianas at least and probably also the carolines. He can't afford to waste time and effort in the South Pacific after that. Then you can, at your leisure, take back Pago Pago, Suva and Noumea.

I would really concentrate your US forces for it, all your carriers, all your best divisions, your best surfaces TFs, etc.

[Rob Brennan UK]

Greymane speaks truthfully imo too. now i've thought about it.

Other options might be to ignore the Pacific entirely and reinforce/retake australia and then go for the DEI (his beating heart) .. way too early to plan this in any detail though.One other benefit of a DEI approach is that the commonwealth can help from the north by nabbing northern sumatra to add extra pressure to his defence. think of all that OIL in range of heavy bomber ?? <drool>

[veji1]

I haven't played AE yet and haven't had time to play much WITP in a while, but for me part of the pleasure was behaving in a historical way. As the allies you would want to take the initiative, show your strength, but also not go straightaway for a game finisher, ie part of the pleasure is chocking japan progressively.. this is why I am not a big fan of 1943 attacks in the DEI : you can finish the game right there fairly quickly with all the intersupporting bases in AE from northern australia.. There will be massive battles and losses, but by end 1943 japan is starved and done...

While going for the central pacific feels both historical and methodically slow enough.. with the new rules on stacking, you won't be facing 5 divisions on a atoll so with carefull planning and a KB accounted for somewhere, you can do it... And as a reader I would be really interested in seeing a proper island chain invasion in AE to see how it gets handled... from there you can than go for the mariannas and pincer attack your way to the DEI by going for Palau, New guinea, or Truk...

[aztez]

A lot of good views/opinions and most importantly debate. These will help any allied player thinking through forthcoming months. Personally, as always appreciated.

Another very quiet turn. Just airstrikes againts my ground forces in china.

There really has not been much talk about the amount of transports needed to pull through an large scale invasions. The off loading is so diffrent from classic witp.

Any ideas / knowledge regarding this? I'am thinking maybe around 20 AP's + few AK's per divisional size unit. The off loading should be done within turn or two. At least when talking about the actual ground troops.

Also what about the composition of the forces on the landings? Haven't seen much discussions on this subject either when it comes to allied side.

LoBaron: I like the Kuriles route too but as many commented the ports might become an problem. Otherwise it would be the most direct route towards Japan and even if kamikaze are activated a bit earlier it would not be an disaster.

Are you refering to the intel regarding northern australia and burma? I'am flying missions but nothing significant has been spotted.

The Urrupu-Jima would be an obvious target once the other bases are secured.

Even if we could get couple of airbases here it might be worth an shot but his naval forces needs to be dealt with before this campaign though.

Rob: Yeah, the ports will become an issue if we go through that route. I like the airfield sizes though very much.

Dave has not deployed many Betty bombers. Actually haven't seen any for months so I would assume he is training them. Same can be said about Nells. This might become an issue because these must be around 60 exp once we get rolling.

As pointed the operation Bulldozers problem is that it is somewhat obvious. He doesn't seem to have much in these islands though at the moment though. I think this is the least risky operation along with Marshalls but I don't know. It would open the road towards Suva and Noumea and once these are seized than I could link up more allied troops.

I completely agree that too aggressive and brutal assault can be very devastating for BOTH sides. That is why everything needs to calculated as good as it can. Even 1:1 losses are unacceptable in longrun.

Hmmm, you are talking about OFF map movement and than jumping through into DEI? That would be an bold move and also risky. This could be done though via Cape Town but the travelling times are long and it would be one hell of an invasion fleet send through Panama canal. Intresting... need to think this too.

offenseman: Intresting. I think that AI move was way too early and if it activated the kamikazes than very bad move indeed. Allthough AI still has an life of its own.

Sardaukar: Yeah, if manual is to be believed than kamikazes will become active. Allthough they if succesfull invasion is made than the trade off might not be as bad as expected.

A lot of variants available thus leading to numerous possible setbacks.

I guess the key issue is how "powered" the kamikazes are in this AE version. I bet they can be used everywhere but it will also dry out his pilots pools much faster if active.

ABD123: The weather is definately an issue and I think it will affect all the operations in the north. Including kamikazes.

Graymane: Point taken into consideration. The biggest strategic benefit would be those nice airfields near home islands. With that range even the shorter legged bombers could become quite useful. That is the main benefit for the allied side.

The Bulldozer would most definately/ likely get the KB out into open which is not an bad idea once we are ready to deal with it. We want to deal the deathblow to his naval assets as soon as practical.

The risk with Marshalls is not the actual strenght or garrisons. It is the amount of bases he has there which if developed can provide a lot of airpower againts any invasion TF's coming towards the islands.

It might be costly depending on his strenghts in this region. Than again the atoll chain would provide a lot of good airfields for the allies too. It is kind of an trade off as all the operations usually are.

The central pacific route is definately another options. The knife through butter effect into Iwo Jima could be very devastating for him. (It was in the previous encounter).

I completely agree that we need enough carriers plus lba cover if and when possible.

Good points and views.

veji1: Nice to see you here too. I concur that the most fun is retain somewhat logical historical feel of the game. We have so far managed to do this.

It is an two way sword though since by being too obvious you only bring more harms and nasty suprises so I would like to think out of the box too.

Good thing though that we are not ready yet to go forward so we can still think this through and finalize the possible future operations.

The point taken about the island chain invasions. We shall see what the future holds... there are those plans againts Marshalls plus Samoa allready sketched. Just a bit too early to deciede on these. Keep in mind also that these are initial plans which can be changed in very fast time frame.

...appreciated the comments. A lot of things to think through.

[cfulbright]

"Any ideas / knowledge regarding this? I'am thinking maybe around 20 AP's + few AK's per divisional size unit. The off loading should be done within turn or two. At least when talking about the actual ground troops."

Aztez - If it's a port 0 or 1 island, you are going to get your infantry squads landed very quickly, and then it will take weeks to unload all the Motorized Support and things like radars, 105mm guns, etc. You may need to do a Frank Jack Fletcher and scoot your transports away before they're done unloading. One size 0 islands they will NEVER finish unloading the bigger devices

[Yamato_Blitzer]

We are in no rush to commit into large scale offensive actions.

Forget that.

Oh, and Kurilles looks awesome, won't bad weather work in your favor if he's trying to intervene and stop you? your ships get more damaged but what about invading during the worst months on purpose? Worse weather means far less chance (and in some cases a total void) of all-out carrier clashes, you can neutralize that risk for the time being, therefor securing a crucial foot hold and at the same time giving yourself even more time for the advantage of allied CV build up

Furthermore, I demand the moral operation of sending significant American ground and air forces into China, A non-stop dagger blitz from the Southern coast to Peking! Totally annihilating the CEF (or rather the CEF and the Manchuko Garrison, that cheap bastard)

[Rob Brennan UK]

ORIGINAL: Yamato_Blitzer

We are in no rush to commit into large scale offensive actions.

Forget that.

Oh, and Kurilles looks awesome, won't bad weather work in your favor if he's trying to intervene and stop you? your ships get more damaged but what about invading during the worst months on purpose? Worse weather means far less chance (and in some cases a total void) of all-out carrier clashes, you can neutralize that risk for the time being, therefor securing a crucial foot hold and at the same time giving yourself even more time for the advantage of allied CV build up

Furthermore, I demand the moral operation of sending significant American ground and air forces into China, A non-stop dagger blitz from the Southern coast to Peking! Totally annihilating the CEF (or rather the CEF and the Manchuko Garrison, that cheap bastard)

Invading in winter (unless the rules have been drastically changed) makes any invasion iirc 75% less effective and unloading nigh well impossible aka cfulbright's comments.

not seeing nellys eh ? well hes still got his main core flyers then (80+) and as you say training up a good cadre too.

Hmmm, you are talking about OFF map movement and than jumping through into DEI? That would be an bold move and also risky. This could be done though via Cape Town but the travelling times are long and it would be one hell of an invasion fleet send through Panama canal. Intresting... need to think this too.

nothing off map at all. your CV's in the pacific can lurk in the SW and cover important troops shipments to australia to fight a land war vs japan. being in SW pac means its 'relatively' easy to move up to india to cover a CW invasion (in the far future tho.) I mean you use the CW troops in the north DEI and US/Oz/NZ to initially fight in australia and be available when you finish up there.

you have had a couple of recent comments that kuriles is a good idea .. its NOT at least till spring 43 , invading in winter in the north ?? nuts.

Well you did want discussions ? [;)]

[Yamato_Blitzer]

Usually the Jap player has a whole lot of nothing stationed in that region, nothing to significant, and aztez can concentrate a ton of shit. It can be done, worth it if he can gain that region without any naval risk due to the weather

[Graymane]

To invade the Marshalls (I'll also add the Gilberts into this as it might be easier there instead), I'd focus on 3 atols that are close together, both the Marshalls and the Gilberts have that on the map. At least one with a functioning level 1 AF and maybe one with a good port. The Marshalls have that in the SE corner of the chain including a white island I believe. The Gilberts are less developed but maybe safer.

The invasion composition would be such that you would land at least 1 RGT of INF + armor + one of those small DET with naval support in the first wave. Basically, work on 3 x the AV of the atol max size. The 2nd wave would include arty + eng assets (a lot of ENG assets to get sizes up quickly). The 3rd wave would include AKVs/AKs loaded with fighters to land when the fields are up as well as a BF with ENG + Air Support + Naval Support.

Preceed the invasion with a number of bombard missions on all the atols/islands where you suspect big concentrations of bombers. Make sure to include a couple of BBs in a few of the groups and keep the sizes under 10 or so. I think TF size has something to do with spotting. BBs can absorb shots better than anything else.

The invasion TF should have some heavies in it as well to absorb shots and provide AA. I might even add some BBs to the carrier TFs while they are providing LRCAP (maybe the ones returning after the bombardment). Get your CVEs and put them in the invasion hexes for CAP. Get every CVL and CV you have and load them with carrier capable fighters, offload bombers if you need to. LRCAP the invasion TF and CAP your own TF. Put them all in the same hex. Make sure you have surface TFs between you and the expected air avenue so it hits them instead of your carriers.

You need to get in and get out, so make sure you have lots of naval support (all those small DET forces and anything else you got to help with loading) and a lot of supplies. You then start running supplies with APDs at night. It is important to try to take at least one 60,000 or unlimited size island. Use your best divisions for that. Make sure you are using all your AP and AK that you have.

[bklooste]

Problem with the Kuriles is you wont hold it he will throw everything at you .. If this is what you want ( and it could be its a good thing) . He will have nothing there in terms of land forces ( Naval could be a bit esp ships damaged or after refits ) and air would be significant and i think speed is more important than the size of force comitted. Its worth noting most Jap players gut their home defences and replace the air unit pilots with green training ones for obvious reasons allied players are not brave enough .

The question is what you do about the counter attack .

1) He can land a Division supported by his LBA using local AK
2) He can wait till KB comes around .

The good news is if you are quick he will hit you in winter meaning with minimum forces you can extract significant losses. How much LBA do you have that can sink ships ?

Anyway while he is busy here take Pago Pago You dont want to leave over stacks anyway.

[Swenslim]

Better to invade Mili, Makin and Ponape, they can have 30 000 troops each and there you can build 2 lvl ports and 2-4 airfields.

[aztez]

cfulbright: Yeah, the off loading of heavier equpment is slow. I have experienced this all around the smaller bases.

The 0 size ports take forever to build up but even level 1 ports seem to build up in decent pace.

Yamato_Blitzer: It should work both ways. There actually enemy invasions ongoing in Aleutians so he must have calculated that those islands in Kuriles are worth of defending.

Yeah, I would love to answer the demand immediately but there are high risk if everything goes bad. Damn, I wish he would not have sunken those 2 US carriers early on.

I still do like the Kuriles as you do too.

Rob: Is that 75% figure written in stone? I mean he is unloading in 3 separate bases as we speak. The weather forecast shows severe storms all around them.

True. No Nellies anywhere after the first few months. That +80 experience level has an bad things written to it. Good to know that he has these kind of pilots hidden somewhere.

Ok. I thought you were referring to off map movement which is possible to do. By going through into DEI would mean going through Samoa, Fiji and New Caledonia. Otherwise the routes are way too long but than again even that is doable.

I still think Kuriles are good because of two things...

1. Airfield sizes near home islands.
2. If needed we can force his navy out into open... and we want to deal with these forces soon as possible.

Graymane: We do seem to think in similar fashion in terms that if Marshalls are the target several bases need to be overrun very quickly.

I had sketched that atolls would requiere an RCT unit + Armour units + Combat Engineers so that is almost identical too.

The bombardment missions are tricky IF we haven't dealt with his naval assets before. We cannot hang around for long unless we gain airsuperiority quickly.

I will be putting up the best AA destroyers with the carriers once we head for offense. These ships seem to have high variables in their ratings.

I have actually though about replacing some bombers with fighters on the carriers. That really would even the odds. We just need high enough experience pilots to go with it and kaboom his forces are in trouble.

At the moment we could put up around 3500av worth of troops into action but not yet satisfied.

One thing I'am not certain is on how to effectively put the MSW tf to go along with it. I think the best way would be to set an MSW TF and order it to follow the invasion taskforces. That way we should have dealt with potential mines also.

bklooste: In a way yes, That is what I want but only when I'am ready for it. At the moment the odds are around 50/50% which I don't find to be good enough.

I see you are also a fan of multiple offensives simultaneously. I prefer that too since it maximes the pressure. You can even fail one offensive if all the other prevail.

There are a lot options to go around though.

Swenslim: That would the "conventional" way to go through things. This would naturally mean that Marianas would be included in this package.

Btw, those bases seem mildly garrisoned if the allied signit is to be believed.

[aztez]

Aleutians (september 5th - 14th 1942)


Firstly, we have now upgraded into 2nd official patch + hotfix. Thus meaning that our ceasefire arrangements are off the table.

We have progressed steadily so the current game is mid september 1942. The last few weeks have been quiet in terms of action.

However last turn saw the japanese fleet in Aleutians. Dave have seized 3 empty bases in this region thus giving him an potentially large airfields for his operations.

On the 13th of semtember the following bases were invaded: Attu Island, Kiska Island and Amchitka Island.

These reports are vague at the moment. I have no intel whether KB is involved but I doubt it unless he trying to force an encounter with US carriers.

The landings were made after the Kurile invasion sketch but I see no harm done to that potential offensive. Actually vice versa.. let him build up these bases for me and than we can come knocking if we choose to.

I'am sending some reinforcements into northern pacific as we speak. Mostly aircraft from the west coast.

Here is the actual map from the Aleutians...

[Rob Brennan UK]

Is that 75% figure written in stone? I mean he is unloading in 3 separate bases as we speak. The weather forecast shows severe storms all around them.

only for winter months , nov-march iirc. actual 'weather' doesnt matter its the hard coded stuff for winter

Re taking the aleutions would be a good cover for a kurile attack if your set on that approach and like you say get some free base upgrades along the way too. watch out for lvl 2 airfields and Nellies though (air hq and he has torps even on a 2)

anyway , me being so negative over the kuriles might just be a cover so a certain reader thinks i dont go that way [;)]. But as Dave has forced your hand up there, and with the aleutians beconing for an allied counter invasion its a viable strategy once the aleutians are built up.

[Graymane]

It is unfortunate that Adak has nothing on it. It is the only base in the chain worth holding. Dutch Harbor can't hold an AF very well, so you'd have to use Umnak. If you don't want to invest the forces, you'll have to fall back to Kodiak really, which is probably what I'd do unless you decide the Kuriles are your focus.

[Graymane]

There is nothing wrong with the Aleutians/Kuriles, per se. The problem is force and focus. Look at his map of the Aleutian chain. There is nothing there except Dutch Harbor. It is going to takes months to build up any significant forces there including fuel and supplies. In my game, I have a level 8 harbor at Adak with backups at Kodiak, Anchorage and all the way back to Prince Rupert. All the canadian troops that can be bought are in various islands in the chain. I have tons of oil and supply, a couple of bomber groups and a fight group. I have something to build an invasion or a defense upon. I also have roughly 2 combat divisions worth of AV located in various places.

In this game, the opponent clearly still has the initiative throughout. It is time to take that away and start dictating the pace and focus of this game. It is important to develop an overall strategy and then a focus for future operations, whatever aztez decides those are, rather than respond to what his opponent is doing. His opponent cannot be strong everywhere and in a situation such as this where he has interior lines, it is like a balloon getting bigger and bigger. One way to pop this balloon is equal pressure from multiple directions. This forces his hand with the KB to respond to one place or another, but it also requires a CREDIBLE threat from each of those directions, i.e. something that is both going to hurt and be long-lasting (raids do not meet this requirement and that is all the Kuriles and Marianas plans are at this point). The other way is to bring everything to bear on a single campaign with overwhelming force.

This is the main reason I advocate a Marshalls/Gilberts attack. It is close to his base of operations at Pearl where he has all of his troops and supplies and fuel and support.

[aztez]

Rob: Ok.. that pretty much explained it. I had forgotten about that hard coded issue so thanks.

Kind of explains why he is so eager to assault the Aleutians now and not later. The weather there remains bad though.

I didn't know you started an PBEM vs LoBaron? I assume you are the "good" guys!

Don't worry if we all would think the same than what is the point of playing. The content is also top notch so feel free to continue.

Graymane: True. Adak is most valuable in terms of base but we simply did not have enough troops at our disposal. However we gaining strenght day by day so the time will come...

I don't think that Kuriles operation is washed down into tubes even if we lose bases in Aleutians. That just means few bases we need to take care of before the jump IF we head out to Kuriles.

The setup you described seems very solid so that kind of puts Aleutians out of harms way for you. The northern route is somewhat intresting since many japanese player seem to neglect the route and it is the most direct route if you calculate via hexes into japan.

I couldn't agree more we need to stop momentum very soon. It is kind of like any sport / game which only accounts into snowball effects.

Point taken about Marshalls and Gillberts! I do agree once we head out with troops we need to be staying there for good no need for anykind suicide missions or harashments.

[aztez]

Aleutians (september 15th - 16th 1942)


There were more action in past turn. The bases at Amchitka, Adak and Kiska. The initial strenght is just single infantry unit landed so it will take time for him to develop these bases.

KB (or part of it) showed up near Dutch Harbour where it launched couple of raids againts our ASW TF and the base itself.

The net results was few smallers vessels sunk and damaged port at Dutch Harbour.

Allied AA managed to down some +20 Vals though which good news unless this FOW ofcourse.

There is also an larger invasion fleet sailing with KB and yet unconfirmed where these troops will unload.

Allied HQ has been reported to give green light into Operation Tango.

The details are yet to be confirmed though.

[Rob Brennan UK]

I didn't know you started an PBEM vs LoBaron? I assume you are the "good" guys!

If you mean by 'good guys' the liberators of the evil european nations .. yes [;)]. we are just playing the 1000 mile scenario .. no spoilers pls all as we havnt looked at each others setup or reinforcements .. its good fun.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

I didn't know you started an PBEM vs LoBaron? I assume you are the "good" guys!

If you mean by 'good guys' the liberators of the evil european nations .. yes [;)]. we are just playing the 1000 mile scenario .. no spoilers pls all as we havnt looked at each others setup or reinforcements .. its good fun.

Oh my... you are playing as Japan! What is happening in this world! [:D]

Not to worry about spoilers though!