Historians: questions re allied local naval commands

[Don Bowen]

I would like help in researching local naval commands for allied navies. Something along the line of the US and Japanese Naval Districts. I have nothing on area commands for Australia, New Zealand, India, British, Dutch, Free French and Commonwealth.

Can any of you history buffs help?

[jcjordan]

here's some Oz stuff but not much - maybe something to start with. I used to have a link somewhere that gave some multiple info on US zones when I was working on the CHS leaders but can't find offhand right now.

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ran/ran.htm

Here's some NZ info but have't read it as I used this source more for the air & land info

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Navy.html

Neihorster or the Hyperwar sites might also be a decent starting point that'd lead you to other places of info

[Don Bowen]

Thanks, I've seen these and been to Niehorster. All these, and all I can find, are "port" commands. Perhaps only the US and Japan have Naval Districts in the "large region" concept. Niehorster has excellent data for the US and Japanese districts.

I have seen some references to Eastern and Western Australian Coasts, North and South Islands in New Zealand, Eastern and Western India, "China station" (i.e. Hong Kong), Singapore, and a couple others, but not enough to create and name the commands. Maybe they don't exist - in which case we might make them up.

[jcjordan]

I would imagine that all the Brit & associated Commonwealth nations would be organized along the port based commands similar to what was shown at the Dunn site link due to not having all the ports & ships the US had so they wouldn't have as big a command infrastructure needed other than something formed to support an upcoming operation in the area or like the Aust Army having the military districts but I never came across that kind of structure in searching. The East/West type command above the port commands does seem a hiearchal possibility for ease of command & control w/ them reporting to a central command but again I don't recall seeing that kind of structure or it may have been an unofficial structure where 3 admirals got together & said you handle the east coast & you handle the west coast & report back to me so I can make the final decisions & report to the minister about any events. Here's a little more Oz info to scan through if you've not seen it http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/second_world_war/

[Don Bowen]

Thank you Sir. I know that site but seldom go to it. I already have the Australian Histories in book format (at least those on the Pacific Theatre) and I don't need reminding that I paid so much money for what is now free.

I'm about resigned to the lack of Naval District Commands in most Navies - and am considering making them up. What we want is something like the US/Japanese Naval Districts that are:

1. Regional HQs
2. Can have ships assigned.
3. Will have Naval Support (removed from some base forces).

Also looking at some Naval Type Commands (for organization). Japanese 6th Fleet, US Central Pacific Support Force, etc. However, we also want to greatly expand port operating and landing support units for naval support, and are actually running out of land unit slots....

[jcjordan]

I agree on the free as I tried to use as much free info as I could from online (Google & I became good friends in CHS days) to local libraries in my research & only spent money when I had to & that was when I got down to the historical pilots & aces for what units they were in, mostly Japanese. Good luck

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Also looking at some Naval Type Commands (for organization). Japanese 6th Fleet, US Central Pacific Support Force, etc. However, we also want to greatly expand port operating and landing support units for naval support, and are actually running out of land unit slots....

If you're trying to identify actual units, you'll definitely run out of slots. The only way I kept the US land OOB beast even partially tamed was by hoovering up later-arriving artillery, engineer, AAA, CD, &tc units into 2,3, and 4 battalion groups, regiments and brigades. Some 1945 combat engineers are combined into 8 battalion super-brigades.

One work around is to designate some large port ops / landing support units as infantry divisions (but equipped only with naval support). The player could break them down into 3 subunits. Not a particularly elegant solution, I know, but. . . any port in a storm.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

However, we also want to greatly expand port operating and landing support units for naval support, and are actually running out of land unit slots....

There are 19,999 slots for ships but only 7,999 for LCUs and bases, Jeez Louise [:(][8|]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

However, we also want to greatly expand port operating and landing support units for naval support, and are actually running out of land unit slots....

There are 19,999 slots for ships but only 7,999 for LCUs and bases, Jeez Louise [:(][8|]

Both these numbers are massive increases over WITP.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

However, we also want to greatly expand port operating and landing support units for naval support, and are actually running out of land unit slots....

There are 19,999 slots for ships but only 7,999 for LCUs and bases, Jeez Louise [:(][8|]

Both these numbers are massive increases over WITP.

Yeah I know Don. Hope you guys can do your consolidation type magic on those slots that are already in the game and use them for your mod's purposes. Since they are not the standard scenarios you shouldn't get too much flak from the general public fellas (trying not to call any one boys).

[dwg]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
"China station" (i.e. Hong Kong)

China Station was a bit more than just Hong Kong, and so on for the other stations. According to wikipedia:" The station's responsibilities generally included the coasts of China and its navigable rivers, the western part of the Pacific Ocean, and the waters around the Dutch East Indies.[1] These responsibilities did not imply territorial claims, although the navy often co-operated with British commercial interests in the above areas."

Wiki has a category for RN stations at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:R ... y_stations with the individual entries having a brief summary of the geographic area of responsibility and bases.

There's also a potentially interesting page at http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-420 ... erseas.htm with a map of geographical areas and lists of ships assigned. There are entries for other dates on the site, but I can't find a way to get to them from the front page.

[Don Bowen]

This is in line with US Naval Districts - a headquarters and a region of responsibility.

Really need Australian, New Zealand, and Dutch. I've heard some reference to Eastern and Western Australia Commands. Have no idea if New Zealand or the NEI were broken down into naval regions.

[oldman45]

I sent a note to some friends of mine in the Netherlands, to see if they can lay their hands on something, not sure whats out there but we can hope.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thank you Sir. I know that site but seldom go to it. I already have the Australian Histories in book format (at least those on the Pacific Theatre) and I don't need reminding that I paid so much money for what is now free.

I'm about resigned to the lack of Naval District Commands in most Navies - and am considering making them up. What we want is something like the US/Japanese Naval Districts that are:

1. Regional HQs
2. Can have ships assigned.
3. Will have Naval Support (removed from some base forces).

Also looking at some Naval Type Commands (for organization). Japanese 6th Fleet, US Central Pacific Support Force, etc. However, we also want to greatly expand port operating and landing support units for naval support, and are actually running out of land unit slots....

The Royal Navy (including RAN, RNZN, RCN and FAA) used ship names for their regional commands. Just have a close look at the Niehorster site. On the sub page about the RAN you'll find (for example) HMAS Leeuwin as designation for the RAN base at Fremantle,HMAS Lonsdale for Melbourne etc. Those bases worked as kind of regional commands (mostly with a captain in charge) similar to USN Naval Districts.

There were also Stations (like China Station) with flag officers in charge, but they represented a higher level of command (mostly covering big areas like East Africa, Australia, NZ etc.). I think the flag officers in command of stations had basically the same level of authority as fleet commanders.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen



The Royal Navy (including RAN, RNZN, RCN and FAA) used ship names for their regional commands.

The bases that have ships' names aren't regional commands, but bases respectively shore establishments (semi-official nickname is "stone frigate"). Many of them are training facilities. Regional commands may be physically situated there.

There were also Stations (like China Station) with flag officers in charge, but they represented a higher level of command (mostly covering big areas like East Africa, Australia, NZ etc.). I think the flag officers in command of stations had basically the same level of authority as fleet commanders.

Actually, the admiral in command of, say, the Mediterranean Station would historically be the Commander of the Mediterranean fleet, that is, fleet commanders were always also area commanders. The only exception to this were fleets based in home waters, which were controlled more directly from the Admiralty, while commands in foreign waters had much greater autonomy (a matter of communications - as radio communications progressed, the amount of back-seat driving increased exponentially).

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen



The Royal Navy (including RAN, RNZN, RCN and FAA) used ship names for their regional commands.

The bases that have ships' names aren't regional commands, but bases respectively shore establishments (semi-official nickname is "stone frigate"). Many of them are training facilities. Regional commands may be physically situated there.

As far as I know, the RN did not have regional commands similar to USN (or IJN) naval districts. Nevertheless, the shore establishments (well, some of them) at ports outside the UK controlled the regional defense craft (minesweepers etc.) located there. Thus the shore establishments are the RN establishments that come close to naval districts in other navies.

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
There were also Stations (like China Station) with flag officers in charge, but they represented a higher level of command (mostly covering big areas like East Africa, Australia, NZ etc.). I think the flag officers in command of stations had basically the same level of authority as fleet commanders.

Actually, the admiral in command of, say, the Mediterranean Station would historically be the Commander of the Mediterranean fleet, that is, fleet commanders were always also area commanders. The only exception to this were fleets based in home waters, which were controlled more directly from the Admiralty, while commands in foreign waters had much greater autonomy (a matter of communications - as radio communications progressed, the amount of back-seat driving increased exponentially).

Correct, but I was not writing about home waters or the Mediterrean. Not all stations were fleet commands. Australian station, for example.

[Don Bowen]

After a lot of research and some dumb luck, I believe I have the answer for the RAN.

1. Local Naval districts were created for each state and for the Northern Territory (total of seven).
2. There were initially four combined area commands: North East, South East, Port Moresby and (guesing) Western.
3. There were five air area commands: North Eastern, Eastern, Southern, Western, and North Western. These appear to be for Australian only, not including Papua or Mandated Islands.

For the purposes of a scenario, I would recommend four NAVAL HQs corresponding to the four area commands (#2, above). This would allow local defense and patrol ships to be assigned to the local commands.

At least, that's what I'd do.