Making sub patrol and react better

[castor troy]

Hi

From ingame experience and the other thread about subs hitting mines I would like to see an improvement of the sub patrol, which is a toggle that subs should NOT react into enemy bases. Why? Because they hit mines there all the time and it will probably the number one reason why you lose subs over the course of the war. And not just that, everyone that has played WITP and is now playing AE knows (and has always been told [:o]) NOT to move subs into base hexes.

Well, what is the react routine now doing? Moving subs into base hexes on and on when they are sent off their patrol zone. This not just results in mine hits but also makes the subs far more vulnerable. Have not found a possibility to keep my subs out of enemy base hexes. The opposite is true, I see halve a dozen subs and MORE sitting in enemy base hexes as they have constantly been reacting, ending up in enemy bases.

This is pretty off and reminds me of auto sub ops in WITP (and probably AE) with most of your subs sitting in enemy ports.

Anyone ever thought about improving this new feature? The feature itself is a great improvement over WITP but the outcome isn´t really what it should be IMO. At least it should prevent subs from ending up in an enemy base when the set patrol zone is 20 hexes off the base.

[CapAndGown]

Please tell my how to get subs to react to enemy ships. I keep reading about this feature but haven't seen in the Guadacanal scenario I played against the AI. I set the "react" range to 6 but nothing happened.

[Don Bowen]

Subs in AE will never react into a DETECTED mine field. They will react into an undetected minefield 'cause they don't know it's there.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Subs in AE will never react into a DETECTED mine field. They will react into an undetected minefield 'cause they don't know it's there.

I´ve gut subs sitting in more than a couple of enemy bases where I see the nice red dot, which should mean that there are mines there. [&:] I perhaps misunderstand your very apreciated answer Don, does it mean that subs shouldn´t react into the base where a mine field was spotted before (which isn´t happening in my games) or does it mean the subs just won´t hit a spotted minefield anymore?

[khyberbill]

I suspect it was your subs that detected the mine field-after they entered it. I dont like this feature either and now I put my subs on react range of 3 and try to keep them at least 4 hexes away from enemy ports. Not always succesful. At a few places, I set the range to 1 because the patrol zone is so tight.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Subs in AE will never react into a DETECTED mine field. They will react into an undetected minefield 'cause they don't know it's there.

I´ve gut subs sitting in more than a couple of enemy bases where I see the nice red dot, which should mean that there are mines there. [&:] I perhaps misunderstand your very apreciated answer Don, does it mean that subs shouldn´t react into the base where a mine field was spotted before (which isn´t happening in my games) or does it mean the subs just won´t hit a spotted minefield anymore?

Reaction only. If subs are ordered by a player to move into a mined hex, they will.

With a 40 mile hex, it is difficult to determine exactly where things are in the hex. But, since a sub can attack TFs that are logically at a base in the hex, we had to consider the chance that they will hit mines defending that base.

[Don Bowen]

Subs will also not react into larger ports. Don't recall the size but it's fairly small - four maybe??

If someone has a save just before a sub on reaction hits a mine, please post it in the tech support forum. In fact, any save where a sub hits a mine would be useful.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Please tell my how to get subs to react to enemy ships. I keep reading about this feature but haven't seen in the Guadacanal scenario I played against the AI. I set the "react" range to 6 but nothing happened.

Four factors that I can see.

1. Crew experience
2. Leadership-especially aggressiveness.
3. Radar. You get radar with the 4/42 upgrade in all your American subs.
4. Detection level. You need to spot the TF. More likely if you have air patrols in the area or other subs.

[Rob Brennan UK]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Subs will also not react into larger ports. Don't recall the size but it's fairly small - four maybe??

If someone has a save just before a sub on reaction hits a mine, please post it in the tech support forum. In fact, any save where a sub hits a mine would be useful.

I just had SS greenling react into Truk 2 days ago in the guadalcanal scenario PBEM so i dont have a save. I'm pretty sure one will run into Rabaul soon so i'll keep that and mail it in the tech support forums for you Don.

Cap

Please tell my how to get subs to react to enemy ships. I keep reading about this feature but haven't seen in the Guadacanal scenario I played against the AI. I set the "react" range to 6 but nothing happened.

thats exactly right , mine do react sometimes but not always. are you playing multiple turns ? as a sub may react then lost target and return to patrol routes without you noticing it in 2-3 day turns (just a thought).

[jb123]

I really don't like the sub react option. In my experience they react to a ship, don't hit anything, I am not informed that they reacted, and then they return to the home port with a full load of torps. Even if I was informed that they reacted, resetting their patrol zones would involve a mind-numbing amount of micromanaging. I take advantage of mid-ocean intercepts, set patrol zones, or leave them on remain on station at key areas. When they shoot or are attacked I move them a few hexes. I have a lot of sub kills, even early war with bad allied torps.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: jb123

I really don't like the sub react option. In my experience they react to a ship, don't hit anything, I am not informed that they reacted, and then they return to the home port with a full load of torps. Even if I was informed that they reacted, resetting their patrol zones would involve a mind-numbing amount of micromanaging. I take advantage of mid-ocean intercepts, set patrol zones, or leave them on remain on station at key areas. When they shoot or are attacked I move them a few hexes. I have a lot of sub kills, even early war with bad allied torps.

If they return to home port after reacting, you are probably using Remain on Station instead of Patrol Zones. You should not do this.

In WITP there was a single function, Remain on Station, that was used both to keep a TF at a location and to specify patroling in that location.

In AE the two functions are separate. Remain on Station should only be used to keep a TF somewhere - and react range should be set to zero. Patrol zones should be used for patrol, along with react. This will allow the TF to react and then return to patrol.

From a purely technical standpoint, Remain on Station and React are incompatabile in AE as the first orders the TF not to move and the other orders the TF to move. This was also true in WITP but the effect is amplified in AE due to the adoption of hex by hex movement.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: jb123

I really don't like the sub react option. In my experience they react to a ship, don't hit anything, I am not informed that they reacted, and then they return to the home port with a full load of torps. Even if I was informed that they reacted, resetting their patrol zones would involve a mind-numbing amount of micromanaging. I take advantage of mid-ocean intercepts, set patrol zones, or leave them on remain on station at key areas. When they shoot or are attacked I move them a few hexes. I have a lot of sub kills, even early war with bad allied torps.

If they return to home port after reacting, you are probably using Remain on Station instead of Patrol Zones. You should not do this.

In WITP there was a single function, Remain on Station, that was used both to keep a TF at a location and to specify patroling in that location.

In AE the two functions are separate. Remain on Station should only be used to keep a TF somewhere - and react range should be set to zero. Patrol zones should be used for patrol, along with react. This will allow the TF to react and then return to patrol.

From a purely technical standpoint, Remain on Station and React are incompatabile in AE as the first orders the TF not to move and the other orders the TF to move. This was also true in WITP but the effect is amplified in AE due to the adoption of hex by hex movement.

Ok, this is the key I was looking for - patrol zones!

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: jb123

I really don't like the sub react option. In my experience they react to a ship, don't hit anything, I am not informed that they reacted, and then they return to the home port with a full load of torps. Even if I was informed that they reacted, resetting their patrol zones would involve a mind-numbing amount of micromanaging. I take advantage of mid-ocean intercepts, set patrol zones, or leave them on remain on station at key areas. When they shoot or are attacked I move them a few hexes. I have a lot of sub kills, even early war with bad allied torps.

If they return to home port after reacting, you are probably using Remain on Station instead of Patrol Zones. You should not do this.

In WITP there was a single function, Remain on Station, that was used both to keep a TF at a location and to specify patroling in that location.

In AE the two functions are separate. Remain on Station should only be used to keep a TF somewhere - and react range should be set to zero. Patrol zones should be used for patrol, along with react. This will allow the TF to react and then return to patrol.

From a purely technical standpoint, Remain on Station and React are incompatabile in AE as the first orders the TF not to move and the other orders the TF to move. This was also true in WITP but the effect is amplified in AE due to the adoption of hex by hex movement.

Thanks for very useful information, this explained a lot!

[Titanwarrior89]

Ive noticed in my pbem game(gualalcanal) that sub-react is only one hex. It seems they have reduced it. In the campaign pbem I am currently in we are not using the sub react. So I don't know if it applys to both. But I would think it does. This is with hotfix 1097. Has anyone else had the same thing?

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Ive noticed in my pbem game(gualalcanal) that sub-react is only one hex. It seems they have reduced it. In the campaign pbem I am currently in we are not using the sub react. So I don't know if it applys to both. But I would think it does. This is with hotfix 1097. Has anyone else had the same thing?

Perhaps this:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Ok, here is a third (and we expect final) revision of the hot fix for patch 02.

210 - Submarine reaction range toned down for human players and historical difficulty AI players.

Personally I never used a Sub react range greater than 1, precisely because it produced questionable results in game. If that's been hard coded, so much the better.

[hunchback77]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Ive noticed in my pbem game(gualalcanal) that sub-react is only one hex. It seems they have reduced it. In the campaign pbem I am currently in we are not using the sub react. So I don't know if it applys to both. But I would think it does. This is with hotfix 1097. Has anyone else had the same thing?

It has been toned down in Patch 2 Hotfix 3 per Item 210.

210 - Submarine reaction range toned down for human players and historical difficulty AI players.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Hi

From ingame experience and the other thread about subs hitting mines I would like to see an improvement of the sub patrol, which is a toggle that subs should NOT react into enemy bases. Why? Because they hit mines there all the time and it will probably the number one reason why you lose subs over the course of the war. And not just that, everyone that has played WITP and is now playing AE knows (and has always been told [:o]) NOT to move subs into base hexes.

Well, what is the react routine now doing? Moving subs into base hexes on and on when they are sent off their patrol zone. This not just results in mine hits but also makes the subs far more vulnerable. Have not found a possibility to keep my subs out of enemy base hexes. The opposite is true, I see halve a dozen subs and MORE sitting in enemy base hexes as they have constantly been reacting, ending up in enemy bases.

This is pretty off and reminds me of auto sub ops in WITP (and probably AE) with most of your subs sitting in enemy ports.

Anyone ever thought about improving this new feature? The feature itself is a great improvement over WITP but the outcome isn´t really what it should be IMO. At least it should prevent subs from ending up in an enemy base when the set patrol zone is 20 hexes off the base.

Hi Castor Troy,

I agree with you about subs REACTING into enemy ports-I'd prefer that they not do that. I certainly have done some sticking a sub into a port hex (less than size 3) in AE to see if there's anything juicy there. Inherently dangerous for the submarine if it's mined or there's active ASW assets present, but it should be my choice as commander to order a submarine to do this.

Bear in mind that when you say "port hex" that you're also talking about much of the Phillipine islands map zone and DEI-the hex that includes a port of any size in it. There's more in the hex than just the port, the hex is also simulating waters up to 20 miles away from the hex. No reason that some of those shouldn't be fair 'coastal hunting grounds', as they were IRL.

[Don Bowen]

Please let me say this again. Reaction should not move a sub into a hex containing a known minefield. It also will not move a sub into a hex with a larger port (don't recall the exact size, somewhere around 4).

If you have a save that shows a sub doing this, please post it.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Please let me say this again. Reaction should not move a sub into a hex containing a known minefield. It also will not move a sub into a hex with a larger port (don't recall the exact size, somewhere around 4).

If you have a save that shows a sub doing this, please post it.

OK, Don. My subs reacted into Singapore on turn 1 prepatch II. I'll send you the saves.

Technically, the minefield wasn't SIGHTED until my submarines were blowing up, but for it to be considered as "unknown" is a bit specious. I mean, c'mon-do you think Singapore harbor might have some defensive minefields even if you can't see them? Apart from Osaka or Tokyo, there's probably not a better protected harbor in the world...

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Technically, the minefield wasn't SIGHTED until my submarines were blowing up, but for it to be considered as "unknown" is a bit specious. I mean, c'mon-do you think Singapore harbor might have some defensive minefields even if you can't see them? Apart from Osaka or Tokyo, there's probably not a better protected harbor in the world...

Let's not beat the devs up for no reason. According to Don's post, subs won't react into a port IF it contains a "known minefield", but ALSO if it's larger than size 4. So that would certainly cover Singapore. Now maybe there's a bug and it's not working as intended, but the DESIGN covered exactly the contingency you're talking about. So spare him the "c'mon". [:-]