Since reading "Victor Suvorov's" book way back when I believed that all of the non-Soviet Warsaw Pact divisions would be slotted into existing Soviet armies in the event of a conflict. In peacetime they have their own armies of course, but these were not intended to be activated and take the field as such.
That is really the only discussion I have ever seen regarding them and I am interested in particular in the role of the Czechs and the East Germans in the event of a war. No one on our side seems to held the Czechs in terribly high repute and the German 2nd Corps faced off against them with a long and relatively lightly defended frontage. The US 7th Corps also faced them to a degree but were a lot more worried about the Soviets in the 8th Guards Army instead. The East Germans just never seem to be mentioned at all. Can anyone shed any light on this?
I expect that the East Germans, Czechs (and Poles for that matter) would have been as professional and competent as any of the better Soviet divisions (or is this not saying a lot?) and it is unfair to disregard them completely. The initial temptation was to regard them as hapless cannon fodder, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if in fact they could have been the cutting edge of the offensive.
Any ideas out there?
Cheers, Rob.
Role of Czechs and East Germans
Moderators: IronManBeta, CapnDarwin
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IronManBeta
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I'm no order of battle or G-2 guy. Someone else would have to comment on likely deployments. Nor can I comment on the level of training. I would guess that the East Germans and Czechs in particular were probably not trained as well as their Soviet counterparts, but were possibly better educated.
The real issue in my mind - especially considering the fact that your game takes place in the late '80s - is their motivation to fight. Of course, I am reading the "future" when I say that the game takes place only two or three years prior to the felling of the Wall, but the eastern bloc countries had already lightened up vis-a-vis the west. If you'll recall, the Wall fell after East Germans travelled to Czechoslovakia to then cross to West Germany. In the late '80s, I don't see the Czechs or East Germans being too fired up to die for communism and their Soviet "brothers." I think there would have to be some kind of incident to get them hopping mad at the West before they would press the war with any heart.
Of course, the same could be said with regard to some of the NATO allies. I remember way back in the mid-seventies playing some SPI game, and the NATO player would roll dice to determine whether the Dutch and the Belgians bothered to join the fight. They may have been more committed in the '80s as the radical '60s had long passed and the Soviets were busy invading Afghanistan.
The most interesting issue of all is the Bundeswehr. There would have been a terrible conflict between wanting to repel the invaders from the homeland by fighting for every inch and not wanting to destroy their country for the second time in half a century. At a minimum, there would be a strong temptation to not defend the larger cities in order to preserve them. Given the conscript nature of their army, the short service times, and the generally radical beliefs held by the German youth in the early '80s, there could have been a number of people refusing to fight or otherwise acting with less than peak efficiency. If the war started for the wrong reason, I could see where you end up with a glob of East and West Germans in the middle of the front tearfully embracing and not wanting to actively pursue the war elsewhere. You might want to do more research into the training levels achieved by the Bundeswehr.
The real issue in my mind - especially considering the fact that your game takes place in the late '80s - is their motivation to fight. Of course, I am reading the "future" when I say that the game takes place only two or three years prior to the felling of the Wall, but the eastern bloc countries had already lightened up vis-a-vis the west. If you'll recall, the Wall fell after East Germans travelled to Czechoslovakia to then cross to West Germany. In the late '80s, I don't see the Czechs or East Germans being too fired up to die for communism and their Soviet "brothers." I think there would have to be some kind of incident to get them hopping mad at the West before they would press the war with any heart.
Of course, the same could be said with regard to some of the NATO allies. I remember way back in the mid-seventies playing some SPI game, and the NATO player would roll dice to determine whether the Dutch and the Belgians bothered to join the fight. They may have been more committed in the '80s as the radical '60s had long passed and the Soviets were busy invading Afghanistan.
The most interesting issue of all is the Bundeswehr. There would have been a terrible conflict between wanting to repel the invaders from the homeland by fighting for every inch and not wanting to destroy their country for the second time in half a century. At a minimum, there would be a strong temptation to not defend the larger cities in order to preserve them. Given the conscript nature of their army, the short service times, and the generally radical beliefs held by the German youth in the early '80s, there could have been a number of people refusing to fight or otherwise acting with less than peak efficiency. If the war started for the wrong reason, I could see where you end up with a glob of East and West Germans in the middle of the front tearfully embracing and not wanting to actively pursue the war elsewhere. You might want to do more research into the training levels achieved by the Bundeswehr.
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IronManBeta
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The true willingness to fight was always the big wild card of course. For the WP to just up and launch a campaign without an internal psychological buildup would be unlikely, I agree, but not impossible. Professional soldiers are professional soldiers no matter what uniform they wear and they will do as they are ordered.
The Soviets were keenly aware of their many deficiencies in motivation and I am sure that they would have made sure that a series of highly imflammatory incidents occured in good time and were widely publicized. With our access to a free press taken for granted we don't realize how easy it is to manipulate attitudes in a totalitarian environment. Given two or three months preparation, the front line sattelite troops could have been as gung ho for a fight as the Soviets could possibly want. That presupposes a formal buildup to the war though, not a snap campaign as I am thinking now.
My feeling right now is that the Poles and Czechs would have been ardent defenders of their own soil, but cautious on the attack into West Germany - competent but not inspired. (My theory is that a lot of this modern fighting is at longer ranges than ever though so less eyeball to eyeball courage is required in most situations and therefore motivation is somewhat less important than in previous wars.) My guess is that the East Germans would have been stellar on the attack and defense in a technical sense, but strongly disinclined to be cannon fodder for the Russians in any big close-in battle of attrition. They, more than anyone else, would be the ones to watch.
The Soviets were little more than an armed mob once you get past the all too thin veneer of first class officers. I have read a number of scathing evaluations that list their many shortcomings over the years and I'm inclined to take a lot of it pretty seriously. Like Britain in the imperial age, the Soviet leadership deep down just did not want too competent an army sitting around and they organized it accordingly. They had areas of excellence without a doubt, but I am talking about the overall complete package and I think it was distinctly average at best.
A lot just comes down to psychology and other intangibles though. Good troops well motivated might easily beat superb troops who are disunited and pyschologically dislocated before the battle even begins. How the heck do I model that though? Next game....
Cheers, Rob
The Soviets were keenly aware of their many deficiencies in motivation and I am sure that they would have made sure that a series of highly imflammatory incidents occured in good time and were widely publicized. With our access to a free press taken for granted we don't realize how easy it is to manipulate attitudes in a totalitarian environment. Given two or three months preparation, the front line sattelite troops could have been as gung ho for a fight as the Soviets could possibly want. That presupposes a formal buildup to the war though, not a snap campaign as I am thinking now.
My feeling right now is that the Poles and Czechs would have been ardent defenders of their own soil, but cautious on the attack into West Germany - competent but not inspired. (My theory is that a lot of this modern fighting is at longer ranges than ever though so less eyeball to eyeball courage is required in most situations and therefore motivation is somewhat less important than in previous wars.) My guess is that the East Germans would have been stellar on the attack and defense in a technical sense, but strongly disinclined to be cannon fodder for the Russians in any big close-in battle of attrition. They, more than anyone else, would be the ones to watch.
The Soviets were little more than an armed mob once you get past the all too thin veneer of first class officers. I have read a number of scathing evaluations that list their many shortcomings over the years and I'm inclined to take a lot of it pretty seriously. Like Britain in the imperial age, the Soviet leadership deep down just did not want too competent an army sitting around and they organized it accordingly. They had areas of excellence without a doubt, but I am talking about the overall complete package and I think it was distinctly average at best.
A lot just comes down to psychology and other intangibles though. Good troops well motivated might easily beat superb troops who are disunited and pyschologically dislocated before the battle even begins. How the heck do I model that though? Next game....
Cheers, Rob
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IronManBeta
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I found a half-remembered map of a possible campaign in David Isby's Armies of NATO's Central Front.
From north to south:
1. Polish forces attack Denmark by sea and air.
2. East German 5th Army attacks intoSchlewsig-Holstein (Germany just south of Denmark - a sideshow). This is geographically a dead end, so if successful it will be pulled south and reenter battle somewhere on the North German plain.
3. 2nd Gds Tank Army attacks directly through the center of German I Corps backed up by the Dutch and US Brigade. Objective is the city of Bremen and points due west.
4. 3rd Shock Army (in the lead!) followed by 20th Gds Army attacks along the seam of German I Corps and British Corps north of Hannover and then curving south from there to the vicinity of Cologne.
5. 8th Gds Army supported by 3rd East German Army and followed by 1 Gds Tank Army attacks along the seam between German III and US V Corps towards Frankfurt. Once through, 8th Gds go straight onwards to Mannheim, 1 Gds Tank turn north to Bonn to link up with 3rd Shock, and 3rd East German turns south towards Stuttgart get into the rear of the Americans and scare the French.
6. 1st Czech makes a frontal attack on the US V and VII Corps and breaks through to Nurmeberg (yeah, right) with a view to continuing on to Stuttgart.
7. 4th Czech masks the German II Corps and swings the bulk of its troops through Austria and out into the rear of II Corps in the vicinity of Munich.
8. 4th Gds Army in Czech supports both the Czech armies and reinforces whichever is the more successful.
9. Berlin - two Polish and one East German divisions mask and hopefully seize the city.
The rail lines apparently were good enough to bring in 8 divisions simultaneously (if they survive NATO interdiction) and the road net is good enough that 18 Soviet divisions could move up by road from the USSR within 'two weeks'. Lateral redeployments are anyone's guess but it would cause absolute havoc in my guess.
Has anyone else seen a reasonable looking plan of campaign? There must have a million of them in military circles...
Cheers, Rob.
From north to south:
1. Polish forces attack Denmark by sea and air.
2. East German 5th Army attacks intoSchlewsig-Holstein (Germany just south of Denmark - a sideshow). This is geographically a dead end, so if successful it will be pulled south and reenter battle somewhere on the North German plain.
3. 2nd Gds Tank Army attacks directly through the center of German I Corps backed up by the Dutch and US Brigade. Objective is the city of Bremen and points due west.
4. 3rd Shock Army (in the lead!) followed by 20th Gds Army attacks along the seam of German I Corps and British Corps north of Hannover and then curving south from there to the vicinity of Cologne.
5. 8th Gds Army supported by 3rd East German Army and followed by 1 Gds Tank Army attacks along the seam between German III and US V Corps towards Frankfurt. Once through, 8th Gds go straight onwards to Mannheim, 1 Gds Tank turn north to Bonn to link up with 3rd Shock, and 3rd East German turns south towards Stuttgart get into the rear of the Americans and scare the French.
6. 1st Czech makes a frontal attack on the US V and VII Corps and breaks through to Nurmeberg (yeah, right) with a view to continuing on to Stuttgart.
7. 4th Czech masks the German II Corps and swings the bulk of its troops through Austria and out into the rear of II Corps in the vicinity of Munich.
8. 4th Gds Army in Czech supports both the Czech armies and reinforces whichever is the more successful.
9. Berlin - two Polish and one East German divisions mask and hopefully seize the city.
The rail lines apparently were good enough to bring in 8 divisions simultaneously (if they survive NATO interdiction) and the road net is good enough that 18 Soviet divisions could move up by road from the USSR within 'two weeks'. Lateral redeployments are anyone's guess but it would cause absolute havoc in my guess.
Has anyone else seen a reasonable looking plan of campaign? There must have a million of them in military circles...
Cheers, Rob.
Very Good post Robert...that IMO is pretty close to how I see it too. Back in those "fun" days, tension along the border up until about 1989 was ever increasing. By late 89 and early 90 I recall so many E Germans and other WP allies escaping thru Czech to W Germany it was unbelievable. Seeing little E German made Travants cruising the Autobahn at 50kph crammed with 6 people is a funny site...considering these cars had 2 cycle engines and were about the size of an old VW bug.
Anyways..on to the issue..Don't ever doubt the German capability to wage war...West or East. By far the most proficient of all the non soviet WP armies were the Germans. Even though they were mostly equiped with BMP 1's and T55's (the T72's and BMP2's were in the Tank Divisions), they had a higher maintenance rate then ANY of the WP armies including the Soviets.
The primary job of the E German III Army was to attack south and hit the US 3rd ID and pin them in place. The 3rd ID was a key division in any NATO counterattacks...equipped with the best equipment...by 86 we had an entire divisian worth of M1A1's not to mention all the latest equipment..MLRS, Bradlys, etc. So the III EG Army was a sacrificial lamb basically while the 8th Gds Army hit the US V Corps.
The EG V Army was to hold the Northern flank as Robert mentioned.
As for the W Germans..again...do not doubt their resolve. During those days the W German Army had 12 active duty divisions...all with 3 full brigades..and if war started..they were expected to double their size within 72 hours. They were a mighty force to reckon with. I sat in on a few briefings and they were extremely gung ho. The efficiency of their army always amazed me, having served over there for 5 years during the 80's, I can understand how the old Wehrmacht did so well in WWII..these guys are just good.
As for the WG strategy..it was a pretty well known fact that the bulk of their Army was up in NorthAG where the terrain is harder to defend...mostly flat..and this is where it was expected the Soviets would make the most gains. So up north it was pretty much a defensive war...the Germans were loathe to give up even an inch of their territory and were the driving force in forming the NATO strategy of defending heavily along the border.
The WG forces down south though would have a much easier time of it. They expected to be able to hold the Czechs and Soviets along that frontier pretty easily and contain the thrust thru Fulda. That left several divisions in and around the 3rd ID sector pretty free..including the 12th Panzer Division.
One of the WG startegies was to take this corps and thrust up between the 8th GDS Army and the 1st GDS Tank Army..thru Dresden and on to Berlin...with or without US support..and that last statement came right out of their Corps Commanders mouth..sheesh..talk about a bold move. They figured the real only way to save the northern flank was to cut up behind the 4 Soviet Armies advancing west and cut off their supply. The last thing I would want as the Soviet Commander would be to have 3 heavy German Divisions racing thru the Frontal rear area.
IMO..maybe they couldn't have taken Berlin..but they would have seized the strategic initiative forcing the Soviets to react to them..and with the best of the Soviet forces heavily engaged, the only real forces to contend with would have been Polish and a couple 2nd echelon Soviet Armies (28th CAA for one)...but those would have arrived piecemeal.
The Dutch forces..even though they were part of a union..and many looked like hippies with long hair..their equipment was immaculate and their proficiency was very high. I have no doubt they would have fought very well. I am not as familiar though on the Belgium army as I was on the Germans and Dutch. Whenever we had gunnery competition, the Dutch usually won the majority of the time with the Germans and US fighting over 2nd place.
Well..sorry for so a long post..you guys got me going on this:)
Sabre21
Anyways..on to the issue..Don't ever doubt the German capability to wage war...West or East. By far the most proficient of all the non soviet WP armies were the Germans. Even though they were mostly equiped with BMP 1's and T55's (the T72's and BMP2's were in the Tank Divisions), they had a higher maintenance rate then ANY of the WP armies including the Soviets.
The primary job of the E German III Army was to attack south and hit the US 3rd ID and pin them in place. The 3rd ID was a key division in any NATO counterattacks...equipped with the best equipment...by 86 we had an entire divisian worth of M1A1's not to mention all the latest equipment..MLRS, Bradlys, etc. So the III EG Army was a sacrificial lamb basically while the 8th Gds Army hit the US V Corps.
The EG V Army was to hold the Northern flank as Robert mentioned.
As for the W Germans..again...do not doubt their resolve. During those days the W German Army had 12 active duty divisions...all with 3 full brigades..and if war started..they were expected to double their size within 72 hours. They were a mighty force to reckon with. I sat in on a few briefings and they were extremely gung ho. The efficiency of their army always amazed me, having served over there for 5 years during the 80's, I can understand how the old Wehrmacht did so well in WWII..these guys are just good.
As for the WG strategy..it was a pretty well known fact that the bulk of their Army was up in NorthAG where the terrain is harder to defend...mostly flat..and this is where it was expected the Soviets would make the most gains. So up north it was pretty much a defensive war...the Germans were loathe to give up even an inch of their territory and were the driving force in forming the NATO strategy of defending heavily along the border.
The WG forces down south though would have a much easier time of it. They expected to be able to hold the Czechs and Soviets along that frontier pretty easily and contain the thrust thru Fulda. That left several divisions in and around the 3rd ID sector pretty free..including the 12th Panzer Division.
One of the WG startegies was to take this corps and thrust up between the 8th GDS Army and the 1st GDS Tank Army..thru Dresden and on to Berlin...with or without US support..and that last statement came right out of their Corps Commanders mouth..sheesh..talk about a bold move. They figured the real only way to save the northern flank was to cut up behind the 4 Soviet Armies advancing west and cut off their supply. The last thing I would want as the Soviet Commander would be to have 3 heavy German Divisions racing thru the Frontal rear area.
IMO..maybe they couldn't have taken Berlin..but they would have seized the strategic initiative forcing the Soviets to react to them..and with the best of the Soviet forces heavily engaged, the only real forces to contend with would have been Polish and a couple 2nd echelon Soviet Armies (28th CAA for one)...but those would have arrived piecemeal.
The Dutch forces..even though they were part of a union..and many looked like hippies with long hair..their equipment was immaculate and their proficiency was very high. I have no doubt they would have fought very well. I am not as familiar though on the Belgium army as I was on the Germans and Dutch. Whenever we had gunnery competition, the Dutch usually won the majority of the time with the Germans and US fighting over 2nd place.
Well..sorry for so a long post..you guys got me going on this:)
Sabre21
