Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results

[John Lansford]

Well, the developers wanted players to have all sorts of options other than what happened historically.  I guess this is one of those situations.  It does make me wonder why any Japanese player would bother with the "historical" routes to both Bataan and Singapore, though, now that it's been shown that just redirecting their invasion fleets to those bases works just as effectively as advancing down Luzon and Malaya.  Not only is this strategy faster, it cuts off the defenders from their main supply base and frees up units for other offensives.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Well, the developers wanted players to have all sorts of options other than what happened historically.  I guess this is one of those situations.  It does make me wonder why any Japanese player would bother with the "historical" routes to both Bataan and Singapore, though, now that it's been shown that just redirecting their invasion fleets to those bases works just as effectively as advancing down Luzon and Malaya.  Not only is this strategy faster, it cuts off the defenders from their main supply base and frees up units for other offensives.

And it gets all of the PB's sunk that will be needed later as escorts when the torpedoes finally start connecting ...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Well, the developers wanted players to have all sorts of options other than what happened historically.  I guess this is one of those situations.  It does make me wonder why any Japanese player would bother with the "historical" routes to both Bataan and Singapore, though, now that it's been shown that just redirecting their invasion fleets to those bases works just as effectively as advancing down Luzon and Malaya.  Not only is this strategy faster, it cuts off the defenders from their main supply base and frees up units for other offensives.

No..., it isn't. It's an abortion that either crept in or was never recognized during testing. Makes about as much real sense as putting an "I win" button on the screen to reduce playing time...

[John Lansford]

Mike,

I was being sarcastic; I'm with you and the others feeling like the CD routines are majorly screwed up.

[JeffroK]

I'd go for the CD process to be not working, its too often all bad (as in the PH Invasion being scratched) or all bad as follows.

IMHO, each CD unit gets to shoot at just about every target, as you can see I had at least 2 BB and probably 8 DD screening. I had also hit the base(Saipan) for 2-3 days with BB, CA & CV aircraft. At one point I had Gambier Bay bombarding with its 5".

Theres something wrong, at least have a good hard look at it. (Give CD units an arc to cover,and allow the attacker to chose the direction of their attack.)

Pre-Invasion action off Saipan - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

132 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB New Mexico
BB Idaho, Shell hits 8
DD Fullam
xAK Antoine Saugrain, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Admiral Wiley, Shell hits 2
LCI(G)-82, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-81, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-80, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-79, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-78, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-77, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI(G)-76, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCI-70
LCI-69, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
LCI-68
LCI-67, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-66, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCI-65, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-64, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-61, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCI-444, Shell hits 2
LCI-443, Shell hits 5

Japanese ground losses:
504 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)



BB New Mexico firing at 43rd Division
BB Idaho firing at Saipan Naval Fortress
DD Fullam firing at 150th Infantry Regiment
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAK Antoine Saugrain at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAK Admiral Wiley at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
LCI(G)-82 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-82 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-81 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-81 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-81 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-81 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-80 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-80 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-79 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-79 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-78 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-78 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-77 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-77 at 1,000 yards
LCI(G)-76 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI(G)-76 at 1,000 yards
LCI-70 firing at enemy troops
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-70 at 1,000 yards
LCI-69 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-69 at 1,000 yards
LCI-68 firing at enemy troops
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-68 at 1,000 yards
LCI-67 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-67 at 1,000 yards
LCI-66 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-66 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-66 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-66 at 1,000 yards
LCI-65 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-65 at 1,000 yards
LCI-64 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-64 at 1,000 yards
LCI-61 firing at enemy troops
20cm Short Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
8cm T88 DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCI-61 at 1,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

[WITPPL]

Check out my AAR, I am going to reinforce PH from Lahaina by large TFs of barges. I wonder what will happened.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Check out my AAR, I am going to reinforce PH from Lahaina by large TFs of barges. I wonder what will happened.

with or without escorts?

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Check out my AAR, I am going to reinforce PH from Lahaina by large TFs of barges. I wonder what will happened.

with or without escorts?

With a flotilla of row boats which will absorb the fire of 14", 8", 6' Guns and shield the barges from return fire.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Check out my AAR, I am going to reinforce PH from Lahaina by large TFs of barges. I wonder what will happened.

with or without escorts?

With a flotilla of row boats which will absorb the fire of 14", 8", 6' Guns and shield the barges from return fire.

don´t be so sarcastic [:-][;)]

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: castor troy




with or without escorts?

With a flotilla of row boats which will absorb the fire of 14", 8", 6' Guns and shield the barges from return fire.

don´t be so sarcastic [:-][;)]

We really need a sarcastic smiley![8D]

[WITPPL]

Without. 4 TFs as were created by AI in Lahaina. I want to see whats up.

Already there but Ive sent them as barges not landing crafts so they wont unload.
Funny thing is: If you will accidentaly cross Baatan or Sing You would be hammered by CD. You can go to Pearl and nothing will happened (but I think that a straits of Sing and Baatan got to do something with it)

[John Lansford]

I had the same thing happen to my landing craft at Saipan in a WitP game; since the LCI's and LST's have to go right up to the shore, apparently the CD routine lets them have it with everything in the toolbox even if there are escorts trying to shield them.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Oddball_France

reserved for day 2


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 08, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Singapore - Coastal Guns Fire Back!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Singapore (50,84)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 38575 troops, 369 guns, 234 vehicles, Assault Value = 1262

Defending force 15091 troops, 235 guns, 120 vehicles, Assault Value = 217

Japanese adjusted assault: 599

Allied adjusted defense: 163

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Singapore !!!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
953 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 43 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 76 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Vehicles lost 11 (0 destroyed, 11 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
13976 casualties reported
Squads: 234 destroyed, 47 disabled
Non Combat: 1204 destroyed, 116 disabled
Engineers: 86 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 213 (209 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 154 (154 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 13
Units destroyed 2


Assaulting units:
114th Infantry Rgt /1
4th Ind. Engineer Regiment
42nd Infantry Rgt /1
5th Engineer Regiment
55th Infantry Rgt /1
15th Naval Guard Unit
23rd Ind. Engr Rgt /1
15th Ind. Engineer Regiment
5th Recon Rgt /2
41st Infantry Regiment
12th Engineer Regiment
16th Naval Guard Unit
11th Infantry Regiment
1st Tank Rgt /1
56th Infantry Rgt /1
21st Infantry Rgt /1
5th Field Artillery Regiment
84th JAAF AF Bn
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Shipping Engineer Regiment
5th JAAF AF Coy
8th JNAF Coy
53rd Const Co
34th Field AA Battalion
21st JAAF AF Bn
5th Field AF Construction Battalion
20th AA Regiment
54th Const Co
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
18th JAAF Base Force
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
6th JNAF Coy
55th Const Co
25th Army /2

Defending units:
2nd Malay Battalion
1st Manchester Battalion
3rd Cavalry Regiment
2nd Gordons Battalion
2/17 Dogra Battalion
SSVF Brigade
1st Malay Battalion
2nd Loyal Battalion
Singapore Fortress
24th NZ Pioneer Coy
224 Group RAF
Singapore Base Force
2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
Malaya Army
Malayan Air Wing
1st Indian Heavy AA Regiment
22nd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment


and that's it

HR needed, i guess [:D]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, and I don't want to load up a whole new game to check, but does Singapore start the game at 0 forts? If the attack knocked them down to zero, why isn't there a combat report line saying that? (If it does start with zero forts, it shouldn't, especially as this attack came from the sea side, not land, but even the land side should have been considered to be somewhat fortified. Wire, OPs, something, right, all you Singapore experts?)

With zero forts, this is a garden-variety 3:1 attack on an un-reinforced, peacetime Singapore.

[USSAmerica]

I noticed the same thing, Moose.  I just checked, and at least for Scen 1, Singapore starts with lvl 0 forts.  [:(]

[witpqs]

IIRC Singapore starts at 0 forts.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: USS America

I noticed the same thing, Moose.  I just checked, and at least for Scen 1, Singapore starts with lvl 0 forts.  [:(]

Got to admit, I just got back from starting a new game just to check too. This to me is the problem, not the CD. With zero forts, and 15K of odds & ends LCUs, and a horrible HQ CO, it isn't hard to get enough Japanese combat power ashore through the mines and CD to take SIngapore on 12/8. A zero fort level means no wire, no foxholes, no log bunkers, nothing on the sea side? Really? I thought the sea side of Singapore was like the Atlantic Wall? That was the whole basis of the British idea of Fortress Singapore--nobody can approach by land, and we've made an impassable wall by sea.

Jack the forts up to something reasonable--even a 3-4, and see how it goes.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: USS America

I noticed the same thing, Moose.  I just checked, and at least for Scen 1, Singapore starts with lvl 0 forts.  [:(]

Got to admit, I just got back from starting a new game just to check too. This to me is the problem, not the CD. With zero forts, and 15K of odds & ends LCUs, and a horrible HQ CO, it isn't hard to get enough Japanese combat power ashore through the mines and CD to take SIngapore on 12/8. A zero fort level means no wire, no foxholes, no log bunkers, nothing on the sea side? Really? I thought the sea side of Singapore was like the Atlantic Wall? That was the whole basis of the British idea of Fortress Singapore--nobody can approach by land, and we've made an impassable wall by sea.

Jack the forts up to something reasonable--even a 3-4, and see how it goes.

So when the Japanese do come overland...

...maybe we can have the - "Percival Surrenders on Day 5 of the actual Japanese entry into the hex" Rule

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: USS America

I noticed the same thing, Moose.  I just checked, and at least for Scen 1, Singapore starts with lvl 0 forts.  [:(]

Got to admit, I just got back from starting a new game just to check too. This to me is the problem, not the CD. With zero forts, and 15K of odds & ends LCUs, and a horrible HQ CO, it isn't hard to get enough Japanese combat power ashore through the mines and CD to take SIngapore on 12/8. A zero fort level means no wire, no foxholes, no log bunkers, nothing on the sea side? Really? I thought the sea side of Singapore was like the Atlantic Wall? That was the whole basis of the British idea of Fortress Singapore--nobody can approach by land, and we've made an impassable wall by sea.

Jack the forts up to something reasonable--even a 3-4, and see how it goes.

So when the Japanese do come overland...

...maybe we can have the - "Percival Surrenders on Day 5 of the actual Japanese entry into the hex" Rule

It's an inherent problem with the ground combat model, and maybe Singapore is the only case on the map with Huge (tm) sea-facing defenses, and no land-facing. By making Singapore a zero forts the devs seem to assume that human Japanese players will always take the slow land route. By February, when the historical final assault began, it's trivial to have 3-4 forts in place and lots of at-will evacuaitons already done.

But, if you "average" sea and land-facing on 12/8 to be 3-4 forts, you make a sea invasion very costly, but you give a huge construction head-start to the land-facing forts, which could be 5-6 by February if retreating LCUs are put to work.

HR seem like the way to go, or else just play the system as is, lose Singapore on Day 2, and maybe then stage a cost-free retreat of the whole Commonwealth force structure, except Singapore's 15K, into India to wait for help. Certainly a different game if the Japanese have a huge repair yard, huge airfield, and huge supply stack at a critical choke point on Day 2 of the war . . .

[skrewball]

Has there been any "official" word on this issue?

Would it be just a simple hotfix to change the targeting/firing routines of the CDs?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Has there been any "official" word on this issue?

Would it be just a simple hotfix to change the targeting/firing routines of the CDs?

couple of "officials" commented already so I guess it´s in their discussion process. I´m sure that there´s no doubt that there´s something wrong, the question only is how and to what extend fix it.