Tojo or Tony

[Athius]

As a mid-war fighter, which one do you prefer?
Iam leaning towards the tony, it has the same arnament and almost the same manoeuvrability but is amored which means less dead pilots. The only downside I can find is the worse service rating.

Any thoughts?


Jasper

[vaned74]

I generally stick with the Tojo.  If I recall correctly the following:

- Tojo has about 2 hexes extra range
- Tojo is faster
- Tojo has better maneuver ratings at all altitudes
- Tojo has better climb rate which is good for late war interception of bombers
- Tojo engine is Nakajima Ha-35 which is a more standard engine used on a lot of airframes
- Tojo (a) is available 5 months prior to Tony
- Tony has the one point of armor, but, Tojo upgrades to a model (c) or (d) in early 44 with armor

Terminal upgrades of Ki-61 Tony don't look all that impressive - by the time you get to them, the Frank will be available which is a big step up.  Any Tojos I have accumulated I can use for point defense fighters against bombers.  The (b) version I believe also comes with a 40 mm cannon.

That said, I don't know how valuable the one point of armor is to survivability.  My P40s in my allied game seem to die against lightly armed zeros with relative ease.  Haven't checked to see if my pilots survive any better - just know the planes don't.  By the way, the P40 is a slightly less maneuverable version of the Ki-61 with better guns.

[Athius]

Well the thing is, the Ki-44 just doesnt seem such a big step up from the ki-43. The ki43 even has early'er armor.

[Miller]

Forget the early Tony and Tojo (The -1a versions). "But the Oscar has only 2 mgs" I hear you cry.......well the early Tony/Tojo only add an extra pair of 7.7mm guns which are quite useless against armoured bombers.

The Oscar IIb, which arrives in 2/43 is much better until the heavier armed Tojo comes on the scene in late 43. I would not consider the Tony at all due to its high service rating, too many will die on the ground under 4E raids due to being unrepaired in time from previous actions. Just my 2p.....

[vaned74]

I'm with Miller on this one.  I don't care much for the earlier Tojo and have considered not even upgrading from the (b) version of Tojo so as to keep the 40 mm cannon for anti-heavy bomber duties over the home islands.

[PaxMondo]

Does the Tojo B work?  The accuracy of that 40mm looks so bad ....

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Does the Tojo B work?  The accuracy of that 40mm looks so bad ....

this will be the main question IMO. If the 40mm works in the game (we know it didn´t in real life) then it will be an excellent fighter when looking at it´s stats. Compare it to the available Allied ac of that timeframe and every Allied player will start shaking. Is the 40mm useless in the game then it makes the whole II-b model completely useless as you will end up with the same armament of the Nate which can´t take down anything.

[stuman]

I think one of you guys needs to test it now [;)]

[Roko]

There is something wrong with Ki-44 in game.

2x7.7 + 2x12.7 was used only on prototypes and Ki-44-Ia ( 9 planes )
and Ki-44-IIa ( 3 planes ) - together only about 23 planes ever built
Ki-44-IIb used 4x12.7
Ki-44-IIc used 2x12.7 + 2x20
2x12.7 + 2x40mm was used on Ki-44-IIc KAI, first built May 1944

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/986/shoki.jpg

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Roko

There is something wrong with Ki-44 in game.

2x7.7 + 2x12.7 was used only on prototypes and Ki-44-Ia ( 9 planes )
and Ki-44-IIa ( 3 planes ) - together only about 23 planes ever built
Ki-44-IIb used 4x12.7
Ki-44-IIc used 2x12.7 + 2x20
2x12.7 + 2x40mm was used on Ki-44-IIc KAI, first built May 1944

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/986/shoki.jpg

Is that Francillon? If it is, the AE aircraft guru Timtom said following:

'Cos they're directly or indirectly channeling Francillon, who in turn is channeling the prone-to-errors 1st edition of the 8-volume Japanese language "Encyclopedia of Japanese Aircraft 1900-1945".

According to him, AE Ki-44 armament is correct.

[moose1999]

I'm planning on trying out both the Tojo and the Tony.
Yes, it sounds ineffective, but I'm playing against the AI so I can afford to experiment.
I have a couple of Tojo squadrons now, and they're proving very effective against P-40s as well as Hurricanes.
Definately better than Zeroes.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Roko

There is something wrong with Ki-44 in game.

2x7.7 + 2x12.7 was used only on prototypes and Ki-44-Ia ( 9 planes )
and Ki-44-IIa ( 3 planes ) - together only about 23 planes ever built
Ki-44-IIb used 4x12.7
Ki-44-IIc used 2x12.7 + 2x20
2x12.7 + 2x40mm was used on Ki-44-IIc KAI, first built May 1944

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/986/shoki.jpg

I started a thread about this and Timtom pointed out that the IIb used the cannons and not the MGs. It was a surprise to me too as most inet sources say different. It´s correct as it is in AE it seems.

[Roko]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: Roko

There is something wrong with Ki-44 in game.

2x7.7 + 2x12.7 was used only on prototypes and Ki-44-Ia ( 9 planes )
and Ki-44-IIa ( 3 planes ) - together only about 23 planes ever built
Ki-44-IIb used 4x12.7
Ki-44-IIc used 2x12.7 + 2x20
2x12.7 + 2x40mm was used on Ki-44-IIc KAI, first built May 1944

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/986/shoki.jpg

Is that Francillon? If it is, the AE aircraft guru Timtom said following:

'Cos they're directly or indirectly channeling Francillon, who in turn is channeling the prone-to-errors 1st edition of the 8-volume Japanese language "Encyclopedia of Japanese Aircraft 1900-1945".

According to him, AE Ki-44 armament is correct.

Its from Richard M. Beuschel - Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki in Japanese Army Air Force Service.
Similiar data in John F. Brindley - Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki.
But who's right ? [&:]

[xj900uk]

In RL the Tojo was  afar more popular & loved plane than the Tony, which suffered from shoddy workmanship, lack of trained/qualified service engineers & also poorly planned servicability.  For example,  all the Tony's based in PNG had to be boxed & shipped to the PI just for an engine change!

[Rugens]

I like a mix of Oscars and Tojos. Each has some advantages that make it very useful to use them in a mission specific manner. Hands down though for killing allied aircraft my preference is the Tojo. With it's speed and heavier firepower it can allow the IJA to compete in the air until better models come along. Also, a big advantage is that the Tojo, Oscar as well as the Zero all use the Nakajima Ha-35 engine. Very useful to use the heck out of these designs until the next generation engine Nakajima Ha-45 come available.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Roko

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: Roko

There is something wrong with Ki-44 in game.

2x7.7 + 2x12.7 was used only on prototypes and Ki-44-Ia ( 9 planes )
and Ki-44-IIa ( 3 planes ) - together only about 23 planes ever built
Ki-44-IIb used 4x12.7
Ki-44-IIc used 2x12.7 + 2x20
2x12.7 + 2x40mm was used on Ki-44-IIc KAI, first built May 1944

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/986/shoki.jpg

Is that Francillon? If it is, the AE aircraft guru Timtom said following:

'Cos they're directly or indirectly channeling Francillon, who in turn is channeling the prone-to-errors 1st edition of the 8-volume Japanese language "Encyclopedia of Japanese Aircraft 1900-1945".

According to him, AE Ki-44 armament is correct.

Its from Richard M. Beuschel - Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki in Japanese Army Air Force Service.
Similiar data in John F. Brindley - Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki.
But who's right ? [&:]

for me it just doesn´t make sense that a 40mm cannon armed version has entered service that early as the heavy bomber threat was by far not as big at the time of the II-b model than at the time of the c model. Nothing else at the time of the II-b seems to have had such cannons so it´s kinda strange.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

I like a mix of Oscars and Tojos. Each has some advantages that make it very useful to use them in a mission specific manner. Hands down though for killing allied aircraft my preference is the Tojo. With it's speed and heavier firepower it can allow the IJA to compete in the air until better models come along. Also, a big advantage is that the Tojo, Oscar as well as the Zero all use the Nakajima Ha-35 engine. Very useful to use the heck out of these designs until the next generation engine Nakajima Ha-45 come available.

the Oscar and the Tojo use the same engine? [X(] And the Tojo is something like 40 or 50mph faster? So how´s that possible then? Am at work so I can´t check anyway, sounds as strange as fielding the 40mm cannons that early. Is this a modified version of the engine that is not reflected in the game?

[John 3rd]

I have always liked the Tony but the engine point is a good one with Mister Tojo.  To me the key is building a combination of the two.  Heavily favor one design but have the other to help.  Maybe do a 60-40 or 70-30 split?  Something like that for those big furballs in 1943...

[Athius]

Well, I just ran a test. I edited the Guad scenario, adding 1 ki-44b and 1 ki-61a group at Lae.

The opposition consisted mainly of p39's, so the results may be compromised.
However, I also encounterd 1 b17 raid (my escorts did not manage to penetrate the escorts) and 1 other raid of british medium bombers.


The results: the ki44b group claimed 10 kills, and losing 3 planes and only 1 pilot

the ki61a group claimed 3 kills, losing 6 planes and losing 4 pilots, despite the armor.

During the battle I noticed that the Ki-44 was slightly more effective at killing bombers, sometimes killing bombers at a distance of 3. During the fighter battles I received a lot of "enemy plane damaged" messages, so iam not sure if the 40mm cannon is hitting them.

Also, when I looked at the arnament of the ki44b I noticed it was equiped with 4 12.7mm guns, instead of the 2 its supposed to have.

[Rugens]

I don't have specific test results to prove my gut feeling but my gut says that in building the air combat formula, the designers stayed pretty close to Chenault's belief that speed was paramount. In no way am I saying it is right or wrong, just that my observations are that the game attaches a lot of importance to speed.