Resource Waste

[Maximeba]

Not a fan of the resource waste option in 1.7 version. At 500 pp's you lose 10% of your total. How is the US going to save 1000 pp's for nuclear development if it keeps losing 10% every turn. I understand what you are trying to do, but 10% seems a little drastic and 500 pp's is too low. I would like to see neutral countries like the US and USSR not penalized until they go to war. Also I would like to see the 500 point total increased (maybe 1500 pp's) so countries can try to develop the ultimate weapon and still have some pp's left over for other things.
Is there a way to change the resource waste option to 1500 pp's? Remember, be gentle; I'm computer illerate, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Wes
Allies for Ever

[Uxbridge]

You do have a point here. I was the one that originally proposed this "rule" and (I think) therefore partly responsible for WI implementing it. It works as a safeguard, preventing economies to bolt. It's also preventing players, using the fact that there's no construction times or build limitations, to save up on PPs in an unrealistic way by avoiding upkeep penalties. That there's nuclear weapons in the game is something that haven't really entered my mind, but you're right - the waste system does make the atom bombs more expensive. If I remember it correctly, the Manhattan project took up about 11-12 % of the total American war budget, so it wasn't cheap, but the waste system might make even this hard to pay.

Anyway, if you fancy disabling the system, go to the file "data\events\resources_waste.xml" in the scenario you are playing. You can simply remove this line if you like. Then the waste is gone altogether. I also think it safe to just rename it, maybe "data\events\resources_waste_BLOCKED.xml" or something. This will prevent the game from finding this file. Then you can easily change it back if you notice your adversaries growing too strong.

Manipulating the actual events files, is something more complicated, though, so if you're not computer-minded, don't try that. However, I think you're right about not having waste at low levels of PP, so I will lower the cost significally in the 500-1000 interval in my own ETO-scenario.

Thanks for pointing this out. [:)]

[Maximeba]

Anyway, if you fancy disabling the system, go to the file "data\events\resources_waste.xml" in the scenario you are playing. You can simply remove this line if you like. Then the waste is gone altogether. I also think it safe to just rename it, maybe "data\events\resources_waste_BLOCKED.xml" or something. This will prevent the game from finding this file. Then you can easily change it back if you notice your adversaries growing too strong.

Thanks for the info. I tried doing both with no luck the game will start and then snap back to my desktop. Any other suggestions?

Wes
Allies for Ever

[Uxbridge]

Oh, yes! My misstake. Sorry. The the second option doesn't work unless you actually create a file in the event folder, with this name but without the event concerned.

The first option should work, though. I just tried it. Your target is the middle line in the example below:

data\events\molotov_line.xml
data\events\polish_partisans.xml
data\events\resources_waste.xml
data\events\ribbentrop_molotov_pact.xml
data\events\soviet_inland_forts.xml

Make sure to remove only the line and also make sure there's no space left. It should look like this:

data\events\molotov_line.xml
data\events\polish_partisans.xml
data\events\ribbentrop_molotov_pact.xml
data\events\soviet_inland_forts.xml

Try again.

[Maximeba]

I've tried it a second time with no luck. I deleted the resouces_waste.xml line and all the other lines did move up. I can start the game and get as far as the scenaro screen, when I pick the scenario I want the game snaps back to my desktop. It does it both in hotseat mode and scenario mode. Anyhow, Dave and I are getting used to the 500 point limit. It's just those darn Americans and thier stupid Atomic bomb. I've decided I'll just add 50 points per turn until I get to 1000 for nuclear research. Once I've done that I will start to penalize those American for all the grief they are causing me.

Wes
Allies Forever

[Uxbridge]

All right. Odd it doesn't work, but fine you came to another solution.

[AH4Ever]

I'm not a fan of this event either, if we must why not deal with it by adding another modifier to the production point calculations. A 10% penalty at any point is unrealistic.

Let's assume that this concept includes spoilage, larceny and profiteering to determine the total effect turn by turn.

Each country should have base percentage of loss between let's say 0.5% and 1.5% when their WE is at 100% and SU is at 0%.

This base value would change when stockpiled PP's reach certain thresholds (spoilage), when the WE heats up beyond 100% (profiteering) and as SU increases (larceny).

Other factors that could be considered are back market activity, labor issues and partisan activity.

Events could be used to simulate one time or infrequent catastrophe.

[doomtrader]

Does it means that this event is firing up for you with every turn?

[Texashorns]

Doom in my games since 1.7 I notice the waste event firing about 75-80% of the time. It is definetly not 100% for me.

[Uxbridge]

Should be 60 % of the time, shouldnt it.

[AH4Ever]

I wasn't keeping track of how often it fired, but now that you've asked I notice it is not showing up in the Event Results Report

[doomtrader]

Should be 60 % of the time, shouldnt it.

I'm not going to dig a random numbers theory, but more less you are right.

[Razz1]

Another problem with the resourse limitation is that it hurts Germany due to the event that makes them pay 300 to 500 PP to satisfy the civilian population.

this now causes Germany to go into the red for several turns because they can't accumulate the PP's.

[Maximeba]

I believe the intent of having waste is a way to control players from accumulating pps and then spending them all at once and then wala! you have an instant army. Also players might want to avoid paying maintenance costs for an army. This whole thing could be avoided if units had to be built in cities in their home country. I know this has been talked about before but it makes a lot of sense. I would have to plan in advance the units that I would need to have a successful invasion of a country. A new unit would take 2 maybe 3 turns to get into action. You would have to deploy it in a home city, then the next turn you would have to sr to a city near the front and then the unit on the third turn would be available for use.
If we are worried about the Soviets, that they might have an unfair advantage because of this rule, well they do. The further the Axis push east, the less ground the Soviets can afford to give up and cities become closer and closer. The one thing I would do to help the Axis is I would not let Soviets build any units in Soviet cities that they recapture from the Axis. As a matter of fact that could be a rule for all nations; lose the city, lose the ability to replace in that city.
Anyhow this seems more logical than coming up with waste events. As you know I can barely turn my computer on and play, but we have a great game here, we just need the developers to figure out a way (if they desire) to stop what might be called abuse. I don't believe waste events are the answer.

[Uxbridge]

Don't really agree here. [8|]

If, as an example, you consider the US and British armies to be launched against the Continent in 1944. They are being built from late 1941 to the middle of 1944. Assume now that the british player builds almost nothing until Mars 1944, save some air units to bomb Germany, and that the US player builds L1 units and ferry them to Britian, to be waiting there until early 1944 before upgrading and being converted into corps. Also assume that the combined strength of the Allied army for Overlord are planned to be 500 combat factors strong and that the Allied upkeep is "6". Such a force would cost 150 PP in upkeep each turn. If part of this production is put on hold until early 1944, the Allied players would thus be able to save over 10 000 PP if they uses the non-historical, calculated approach, compared to players who goes by the historical way of doing it. It's too large a difference for two ways of playing.

The combination of upkeep and waste is one of the best ways of keeping each country within basically the same productional system, the former making sure that no country gets too big, the latter that one can't come around the system by manipulating the production. It's also an extremely important instrument for a modder, to be able to balance each countrys production.

To have a production time for the units would solve some of the issues, not with 2 or 3 turns delays, but 20 or 30, although only if there was also a limitation to how many units could be produced simultaniously. If so, the players would have to produce in advance and the problem would be gone. Till then, waste is good.

If you're playing a solo game and think that the waste deprives you of the means necessary to achive your glory, tap F11 and add the amount back. [:)]

In ETO I have made a change to waste. There's none of it below 1000 stock, but after that it increases dramatically.

[AH4Ever]

So what you are saying is this event has nothing to do with simulating the factors, that might cause a nation to experience diminished production capacity.

Instead it is all about preventing as you put it players from using "non-historical calculated approaches", formerly know as "blanking" the system.
We can't use that word that causes others to think they've been insulted.


The issues this event attempts to address are:

1) The amount of production available.

2) The ability to stockpile it.

3) The lack of prodution delay.

4) The ability to deploy units in or around any controlled city.

5) The ability to upgrade a unit's level and/or size.


I understand that any changes I'm about to suggest, will not or cannot be implemented due to the time and resources available to the designers.


The amount of production points generated at the normal setting could be reduced for the major countries.

The concepts of production and research could be divided into different functions. A country could generate production points and research points.

Banking of production could top out at the price of whatever unit is most costly.

Production capacity could also be split between new production and replacements.
If this were so any points generated above the limit on new production could spill over to replacement points.

Any or all of the above ideas should make production delay unnecessary.
What should be delayed is the re-deployment of units sent to the pool due to surrender or new nations being formed.

As for deployment, the fact that the USA can't use Scranton to deploy suggests that it can be limited.
Each country could be assigned a limited number of deployment hexes, in and around their main supply sources.

That leaves upgrading, I say scrap it. If you want a corps size unit purchase it.
As for unit level when a higher level is attained, that should be the only level units can be purchased at.

[Uxbridge]

So what you are saying is this event has nothing to do with simulating the factors, that might cause a nation to experience diminished production capacity. Instead it is all about preventing as you put it players from using "non-historical calculated approaches"?

Well, partly, yes. But also because I like to get some natural flow into the productional system. If you can make one cup of tea in three minutes, it doesn't mean that you can make 20 in the same time if you first wait an hour. If the absence of delay is at the one end of absurdity, being able to save up must surely be at the other. It's just wrong.


I understand that any changes I'm about to suggest, will not or cannot be implemented due to the time and resources available to the designers.

We have to face that fact. Your suggestions are all interesting, but we will never see them in this version of the game, nor will we see a lot of other features we would like to have. Therefore I will decline to follow up your points, save one.

As for deployment, the fact that the USA can't use Scranton to deploy suggests that it can be limited. Each country could be assigned a limited number of deployment hexes, in and around their main supply sources.

Funny enough, I was thinking about this earlier today also. For ETO, I may create a number of hexes to be used solely for placement and upgrading of non-infantry units. Our rules dictates that one can only produce units as L1. So in order to get a L4 "corps" (we don't have corps anymore) it will take at least 5 turns before you can actually start to move it to the front. If one adds the necessity to do all this at certain, in number limited, places, we can create a bottleneck that prohibits rapid production of larger forces all at once. In the case of the USSR, we can also prevent armour and motorized being born right into the frontline (yes, I know of the Stalingrad factories), by placing the factories way back.

As for unit level when a higher level is attained, that should be the only level units can be purchased at.

Well, that's a thought. It would, if it was also prohibited to upgrade, create a front with a lot of disparity of units. But having to return to the specific production hex for upgrading would do that too. And you have to be allowed to produce weaker units in order to dampen upkeep. Anyway, I must try this! [:D]