Detection Even if Under the Radar

[Nicholas Bell]

HS, Harley -

Looking for an explanation as to why my raid at 400 feet was detected north of Lands End. I do low level, under the radar raids at 400' all the time and this is the first that one ever was intercepted. Unescorted raid took a beating.

Is there variation in a raid's altitude, ie these dummies were flying higher? Random boat reporting raid? Observation Corps with really good eyesight? [:D]

Thanks,
Nick

[Hard Sarge]

hassle for anwser, where did you get picked up from ?

going to be HARD to judge, when and why you got spotted

but that station at Drytree is going to be a bear (that 2nd one is going to be close to picking you up)

which, yea, seeing you got 86 planes, that is more then one unit, so some of them could of been flying higher or lower then your plotted Alt (and odds are, they would err higher then lower, since you already almost on the deck)

also it could of been chance, AI could of seen the radio chatter, and started to take off on a patrol, based on the chatter, and they could of been in the right place to detect something

really, need more detail, which most times, you are never going to know the time that the raid got spotted (as I said, it could of been before or after the fact

I will play around with it and see what I can pick up

since you are not over, or that close to land, I don't think it was the Ob Corps

[otisabuser2]

Hi Nick,

It looks like the Observer Corps at Penzance.

I think this site should be removed so that it is possible to skirt the west of the UK at low level. No matter how far you fly to the west, this site will always pick you up.



regards Otis

[Hard Sarge]

hassle is, there is no Penzance in the data to remove

so that may be HARD coded, to be the islands to the side that are not shown on the map

[otisabuser2]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

hassle is, there is no Penzance in the data to remove

so that may be HARD coded, to be the islands to the side that are not shown on the map

What's this place then ?

[Hard Sarge]

on a side note, even if the life boat in the water wasn't spotting the raid

that is a plain dangerous raid

the timing of it, just is too reckless

even if unspotted, patrols may spot it, and once it gets close to the coast to make the bomb run, it is going to be spotted, and it then has a long way to go, to get back to safety, from most of the other plots, there is nothing to distract 10 Group, from ganging up and slaughtering it on the way home ?

it is the leading raid, the AI has nothing else to react to, if it reacts

the raid itself would be fine, but it needs a lot of help to give it a chance to work (plus once it started to run for home, it should of beelined it, the RAF knows they are there, they got to get out of there as quick as they can, which is why they need help to get out, other raids should be hitting behind it (way home) pulling fighters towards them, instead of the low level raid)

a raid like that, should of been the main focus of the day, getting it all set up, distracted and then covered (fine to plan on it getting in unseen, but, what if it is seen, there was no support for it)

(and 10 Group is defended in 41)

[Hard Sarge]

Penzance

when I copied it, there was a space in front of it, so the search didn't see it in the files

[Nicholas Bell]

Thanks, Otis. That solves that question. Wonder why it doesn't also pick up the recon flights. Perhaps too small.

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2
It looks like the Observer Corps at Penzance.

I think this site should be removed so that it is possible to skirt the west of the UK at low level. No matter how far you fly to the west, this site will always pick you up.

regards Otis

[Nicholas Bell]

I thought it worth the risk because there were only 2 LAA on the field and it was packed with aircraft according to the recon flown on the same path and altitude the previous day.

BTW, I'm playing against Creeper - he's a lot better than the AI [:)]

Actually the raid was timed to coincide with several massive raids from the south which would have been visible long before and would have naturally had my opponent's full attention - had the raid not been spotted. As it was the defences hit the Pembry raid and were unable to oppose the Exeter raid to any degree.

The reason I didn't beeline home because it would have taken the raid into the teeth of the RAF attacking the raid at Exeter. So there was method to my maddness - it's just that the program wrecked the plan by detecting the raid. And thanks to Otis, now we know why.

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

on a side note, even if the life boat in the water wasn't spotting the raid

that is a plain dangerous raid

the timing of it, just is too reckless

even if unspotted, patrols may spot it, and once it gets close to the coast to make the bomb run, it is going to be spotted, and it then has a long way to go, to get back to safety, from most of the other plots, there is nothing to distract 10 Group, from ganging up and slaughtering it on the way home ?

it is the leading raid, the AI has nothing else to react to, if it reacts

the raid itself would be fine, but it needs a lot of help to give it a chance to work (plus once it started to run for home, it should of beelined it, the RAF knows they are there, they got to get out of there as quick as they can, which is why they need help to get out, other raids should be hitting behind it (way home) pulling fighters towards them, instead of the low level raid)

a raid like that, should of been the main focus of the day, getting it all set up, distracted and then covered (fine to plan on it getting in unseen, but, what if it is seen, there was no support for it)

(and 10 Group is defended in 41)

[Hard Sarge]

Roger, but...

still think the timing was off (of course, play styles depend on the player)

a sneak still works better, after the defence is busy, then before it gets busy (as the attacker, you don't know when he is going to spot that raid going to Exeter, or when he is going to react and with what)

and oddly, in a game, it is at times, better, to pound on something you know, then to defend against something you don't

but as you say, you didn't know you would be spotted

yea, only two guns there, but two Pom-Poms at low level are going to be murder !

[Hard Sarge]

I think this site should be removed so that it is possible to skirt the west of the UK at low level. No matter how far you fly to the west, this site will always pick you up.

Overall, I would have to say no, it is there for a reason, and that is to keep the player honest

now, I do not care for the size of it, with out doing some digging, most people are never going to know it is there, it does not show up on the map, with icons on, and it does not show up with the Urban view, so that I disagree with (I am sure if Nick had known there was a vile or town close to that coast, he would of thought twice about the raid, or would of done something less dangerous to see if it would work)

those isles to the side are going to make it HARD to swing far enough out of view, to really make this kind of idea worthwhile (in real life)

[Hard Sarge]

for what it is worth, Nick, would you of made the same raid if you have this view of the map ?

OB, I think Turo (?) would of spotted him if Penzance had not

[Nicholas Bell]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
for what it is worth, Nick, would you of made the same raid if you have this view of the map ?
OB, I think Turo (?) would of spotted him if Penzance had not

HS, yes, I would have. The reason? Because I was under the radar and was unaware that ground observation had such a range - which I believe is the real issue. I thought that observation was connected to being over land - not the proximity to areas or targets. Did I miss that somewhere in the manual? Now that I think about it, it makes sense from a programming perspective.

Anyway, now I know, and others can learn from my mistake. [:)]

[Hard Sarge]

well, I got to say, I was surprised at the range of the OC also

but, I still didn't like the idea of the unseen site

[otisabuser2]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think this site should be removed so that it is possible to skirt the west of the UK at low level. No matter how far you fly to the west, this site will always pick you up.

Overall, I would have to say no, it is there for a reason, and that is to keep the player honest

Curious that you describe it as being there for a reason, when you had no idea it was even there !

You could fly unseen low level over this spot in the old game, if you remember.

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

those isles to the side are going to make it HARD to swing far enough out of view, to really make this kind of idea worthwhile (in real life)

Can not see why a 20 mile diversion to the west of the Sicllies would be out of the question. We have bombers flying across the whole width of the North Sea, after all.

A right flank sneak attack from France is possible. A left flank is not, simply because the map ends.

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

OB, I think Turo (?) would of spotted him if Penzance had not

Wow. If the Observer Corps can see over 40 miles, it make you wonder why the RAF built radar. [X(]

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think this site should be removed so that it is possible to skirt the west of the UK at low level. No matter how far you fly to the west, this site will always pick you up.

Overall, I would have to say no, it is there for a reason, and that is to keep the player honest

Curious that you describe it as being there for a reason, when you had no idea it was even there !

oh, sorry to disappoint you, I am not beyond figuring out how it works once I see it

You could fly unseen low level over this spot in the old game, if you remember.

look at the old game, it is a Gary site, it is not mine

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

those isles to the side are going to make it HARD to swing far enough out of view, to really make this kind of idea worthwhile (in real life)

Can not see why a 20 mile diversion to the west of the Sicllies would be out of the question. We have bombers flying across the whole width of the North Sea, after all.

it would end up being a much larger then 20 mile swing, besides the fact it would be on the deck, which tended to cause a lot of trouble with bombers in formation

A right flank sneak attack from France is possible. A left flank is not, simply because the map ends.

and again, it is not the same thing, from the North sea is not a sneak flying at wave top levels, to get behind the radar line, and past, undetected, but if you want to fly in from Norway at 400 ft, it still works the same way, they will get detected before they reach the coast, just pretty close to the coast

and where are you going to sneak in from France on the right ? you had me put all of those villes and towns on the coast to stop that ?

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

OB, I think Turo (?) would of spotted him if Penzance had not

Wow. If the Observer Corps can see over 40 miles, it make you wonder why the RAF built radar. [X(]

wondering that too, but it is Gary's code for how the OC works, the distances that the port can see a raid to the right, is with in range of what Turo would be able to see, only Penzance see's it before the coast, Turo would see it after the coast

[otisabuser2]

It may help with a picture.....





On the right ErprGr210 are going under the radar to Hoffmans. They have cleverly avoided the flak and being spotted at Dover / Margate by doing a dog-leg to the right over oper water. They still run the risk of being spotted from the ground when they cross the coast near that radar.

On the Left Flank attack, with He 111 from Brest. The Scilly Isles are just off map to the left of the tip of Cornwall. I ought to be able to pass to the left of them to avoid detection, if I wished. ( If visibility was bad, I could pretty easily slip between the Isles and Cornwall unseen. I've been on the Isles on a good day and not been able to see the mainland. It's a greater distance than across the Dover Straits ).

Anyway, the straight path shown is 476 miles return. The dog-leg one marked Left Flank is 512 miles return.

Note that I have passed 60 miles to the west of the straight path but only added 36 miles to my return journey.

If it was stretched a little further to the west, to pass the off-map islands, it would still not add an impossible distance to my raid.

The return total across the North Sea from Stavanger to Norway is a whopping 824 miles. The game allows He111 to do this at low level. So why not the left flank attack ?

[otisabuser2]

Regarding Penzance :-

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Overall, I would have to say no, it is there for a reason, and that is to keep the player honest

I originally read this as you stating that Penzance was deliberatly placed there for the very reason of stopping a low level flanking attack.

I was therefore only pointing out why this could not be the case. Which you now concur as true. ( ie the place was in the old game, where it had no such effect. And if you had not known it was there in the new game, then you could not have designed that effect. If that makes sense. )

I now understand by your statement that you beleive the location of Penzance there on the game map is a stroke of luck. Obviously, it is this I disagree with. We would be better off without it, to emulate a void in the left flank. [;)]

[harley]

I won't comment on whether I think spotting ranges are right in the game or not as I don't know, but surely there were observation posts along the coast - Lands End would be an obvious point.

Not sure of the exact altitude of the cliffs there, but a raid at 400 feet could be spotted at 24 Miles from sea-level, so increase that range for the height of the cliffs.

[otisabuser2]

I don't disagree with anything you are saying Harley.

Just pointing out that because the map just stops 20 miles west of Penzance, means you can't fly any further west to avoid detection. Whether that's 24 miles, 25 miles, 40 miles or more.

Perhaps we need the "Penzance gap" to simulate any left flank manouvre ?

Discussed this western gap on the old forums. Was one of the reasons we thought it necessary to place in the historical south Wales radar stations. Somebody was telling how they knocked out the western radar station and was then able to fly undetected up to Liverpool, IRRC.