Da Babes Mod

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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
I am curious about the starting location of the Agwiworld in Auckland since she was one of the vessels attacked off the coast of California. In her case, off Cypress Point December 20.
No clue. She cleared LA (partially loaded) for a trip to SFO. Shoulda been a 28 hr trip, and she got whacked 3/4 way through, so cleared night of 18th, or morning of 19th. That would put her at the terminal at LA at least by Dec 14. No way she could trac the Pac in 7 days.

Guess we gotta move her.
Central Blue
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Central Blue »

ORIGINAL: JWE
ORIGINAL: Central Blue
I am curious about the starting location of the Agwiworld in Auckland since she was one of the vessels attacked off the coast of California. In her case, off Cypress Point December 20.
No clue. She cleared LA (partially loaded) for a trip to SFO. Shoulda been a 28 hr trip, and she got whacked 3/4 way through, so cleared night of 18th, or morning of 19th. That would put her at the terminal at LA at least by Dec 14. No way she could trac the Pac in 7 days.

Guess we gotta move her.

No need to take away her deck guns. Hard to see how the crew could have got off a decent shot while Capt. Goncalves was "zigzagging wildly." Even the reporter from Time seems to smell a sea story. [:)]

The Time story goes on to say:
More than the raid on Pearl Harbor, the attacks on the tankers brought to many an unimaginative citizen realization that the U.S. was at war. That war was more tangible than it seemed even on the afternoon of Dec. 7, 1941.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z1BKOLfgPP

Except for golfers. [:D]
USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year
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akdreemer
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Yep. Nice find.

Back in the dawn of time we may have got too fancy with Wee Vee, Colorado and Maryland. They all had different refits and rebuilds. Wee Vee follows the Maryland ladder but gets the full boogie rebuild. Colorado and Maryland are supposed to have that as an option but also follow their own update flow. Woof !!

Wee Vee got the full rebuild because she got whacked so hard at PH, so what the heck. Who knows what woulda happened if she didn’t get hurt so bad.

Maybe thing to do is put them all on the same Colorado-type upgrade schedule: various main and foremast cut-downs and replacement, bridgework and armament updates, etc .. Then make the full boogie rebuild a conversion option beginning in April/May 1943 and have it take about 9 months at a major shipyard. That should cover all the bases and make things flow a bit better.
Nice, are you going to do this for the other ship classes too, including the New Mexico and Pennsylvania? According to my sources, the British had planned to convert all their 'C' class to AA cruisers. Likewise was the plan to refit the Nelson class with 10 twin 4.5" BD, removing the 6" and 4.7".
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
Except for golfers. [:D]
Carl: Correct me if I'm wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers, they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key...
Sandy: Not golfers, you great fool! Gophers! The *little* *brown*, *furry* *rodents* -!
Carl: We can do that; we don't even have to have a reason. All right, let's do the same thing, but with gophers -!

Sorry it's a wierd kinda personal thing.
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Nice, are you going to do this for the other ship classes too, including the New Mexico and Pennsylvania? According to my sources, the British had planned to convert all their 'C' class to AA cruisers. Likewise was the plan to refit the Nelson class with 10 twin 4.5" BD, removing the 6" and 4.7".
Darn Bro. You pose the ultimate question, don't you? Yes, I'll review them, no promises, though.

There are several classes/ships in the database (with art) that represent potential Brit CL(AA) conversions. They aren't in the stock game, because they weren't, but in Da Babes, they might show up very late war. There's a lot of possibilities like this that I would be pleased to discuss further with you (sorry no Nelson refits).

The one thing we wanted to avoid, like the freakin plague, was a "what if" scenario. So everything in Da Babes was something that was actually, physically done; maybe not to a specific Pac ship, but to a sister. Kinda like a hip-pocket AEaster Egg if you know where to look.

Hope you understand the differentiation. Ciao. J
Central Blue
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Central Blue »

ORIGINAL: JWE
ORIGINAL: Central Blue
Except for golfers. [:D]
Carl: Correct me if I'm wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers, they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key...
Sandy: Not golfers, you great fool! Gophers! The *little* *brown*, *furry* *rodents* -!
Carl: We can do that; we don't even have to have a reason. All right, let's do the same thing, but with gophers -!

Sorry it's a wierd kinda personal thing.

I don't normally follow golf, but it's about to storm here like it was Crosby Clambake weather, and I always get a vivid metal picture of the golfers watching that ship go by, whatever the weather was at Cypress Point that day. So I have been looking for an excuse to post those link regardless of where the Agwiworld starts out.

Do you have a web source for the last port of call/next port of call and load for the Agwi on that voyage?


USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year
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Buck Beach
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Maybe thing to do is put them all on the same Colorado-type upgrade schedule: various main and foremast cut-downs and replacement, bridgework and armament updates, etc .. Then make the full boogie rebuild a conversion option beginning in April/May 1943 and have it take about 9 months at a major shipyard. That should cover all the bases and make things flow a bit better.

I think I understand, but want to clarify (I am tweaking as we go along), change the WV and the Maryland to match the upgrade schedule of the Colorado and set the full upgrade (boogie) to in April/May 1943. Is that it?

Now will somebody explain the "Upgrade Shipyard Sz" to me? I thought I knew what it represented but as I look at the subject and other battleships I see some upgrades are not restricted (size zero) and others (the full boogie) require a size "25" and the Maryland 342 requires a "15". I thought the max shipyard was a 10 but obviously I am very confused.


Wait, I think I am confusing port size and shipyard size!!
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
Do you have a web source for the last port of call/next port of call and load for the Agwi on that voyage?
Just Port of Los Angeles "sailings". Nothing public web, sorry.

Hey, I forgot, you're a Cali guy. If they cleared through Angels Gate and the LA harbor master, it would be in back issues of the Times. There was a 'harbor' section with arrivals and departures. Didn't have loads, or times, but did have dates. Wasn't complete, since they didn't pay the same attention to LB, but should be mostly cool. A good starting point.
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
I think I understand, but want to clarify (I am tweaking as we go along), change the WV and the Maryland to match the upgrade schedule of the Colorado and set the full upgrade (boogie) to in April/May 1943. Is that it?
Not .. exactly. They all started out different, and the first and second cuts at CO and MD did slightly different and staggered updates. But around 11/42 or so, they were sufficiently similar that they could run through a set of ‘Class’ updates. MD got her twin 5”/38s in ’45 after she got whacked and had to do yard time. This was also planned for CO, but she didn’t get whacked, so no opportunity came up. Nevertheless, it was scheduled, so …

WV is a bit problematic. She didn’t get the initial blister mod, and still had her 3”/50s instead of 1.1” quads. If she wasn’t whacked at PH, it was very likely she would get the blister mod (I believe mandatory) the AA mods and perhaps (very perhaps) the main cage replaced by the tower. I doubt the replacement, because of the readiness requirement, which could be accommodated by the blister mod, but not by topsides restructuring. But given MDs issues with aft directors, it might have been seen as desirable – still thinking on that one.

So from 2/43 on, we have Class upgrades. But on about 3/43, there is a “conversion” option available, that takes forever, but results in a full boogie rebuild. You can stick with the “upgrade” path and get some pretty nice BBs at the end of it. Or, you can yank 1, 2, or 3 of your best oldies, and keep them out of combat for months and months, and get some prettier, and somewhat better, BBs in 1944.

Think this reflects the thinking of the Board and portrays the options just a skoosh better than trying for historical perfection across the years.
Think I had best send you a class file with all background thoughts - it pertains to all the Big Five (Tennessees and Colorados), King Board, BuShips update docs, etc..

Looks something like this.

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Buck Beach
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: JWE
ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
I think I understand, but want to clarify (I am tweaking as we go along), change the WV and the Maryland to match the upgrade schedule of the Colorado and set the full upgrade (boogie) to in April/May 1943. Is that it?
Not .. exactly. They all started out different, and the first and second cuts at CO and MD did slightly different and staggered updates. But around 11/42 or so, they were sufficiently similar that they could run through a set of ‘Class’ updates. MD got her twin 5”/38s in ’45 after she got whacked and had to do yard time. This was also planned for CO, but she didn’t get whacked, so no opportunity came up. Nevertheless, it was scheduled, so …

WV is a bit problematic. She didn’t get the initial blister mod, and still had her 3”/50s instead of 1.1” quads. If she wasn’t whacked at PH, it was very likely she would get the blister mod (I believe mandatory) the AA mods and perhaps (very perhaps) the main cage replaced by the tower. I doubt the replacement, because of the readiness requirement, which could be accommodated by the blister mod, but not by topsides restructuring. But given MDs issues with aft directors, it might have been seen as desirable – still thinking on that one.

So from 2/43 on, we have Class upgrades. But on about 3/43, there is a “conversion” option available, that takes forever, but results in a full boogie rebuild. You can stick with the “upgrade” path and get some pretty nice BBs at the end of it. Or, you can yank 1, 2, or 3 of your best oldies, and keep them out of combat for months and months, and get some prettier, and somewhat better, BBs in 1944.

Think this reflects the thinking of the Board and portrays the options just a skoosh better than trying for historical perfection across the years.
Think I had best send you a class file with all background thoughts - it pertains to all the Big Five (Tennessees and Colorados), King Board, BuShips update docs, etc..

Looks something like this.

Image


Thanks, I will appreciate receiving it.

Buck
Central Blue
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Central Blue »

ORIGINAL: JWE
ORIGINAL: Central Blue
Do you have a web source for the last port of call/next port of call and load for the Agwi on that voyage?
Just Port of Los Angeles "sailings". Nothing public web, sorry.

Hey, I forgot, you're a Cali guy. If they cleared through Angels Gate and the LA harbor master, it would be in back issues of the Times. There was a 'harbor' section with arrivals and departures. Didn't have loads, or times, but did have dates. Wasn't complete, since they didn't pay the same attention to LB, but should be mostly cool. A good starting point.

They kept publishing that once the war started? Interesting.

Thanks.
USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by oldman45 »

I have a little over 100 turns done using the lite mod and it is rockin'. You guys really do deserve that Cask of Scotch.
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
They kept publishing that once the war started? Interesting.

Thanks.
Yeah. I think they had their Homer Simpson moment around about that time. LA harbor master records are open till Jan. 23, 1942. LA Times had a sailings page till Jan. 17. I guess it took a while for the whole war thing to percolate down to the masses.
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
Thanks, I will appreciate receiving it.

Buck
Ok, here's a preview. Holy testicular Toledo, this was painful ! Had to add some art to make it look right. The "normal" Colorado flow is the left column, ending up with the final Maryland-type configuration; replace all the 5/25s and 5/51s with twin 5/38s and tweak the aft tower structure for the new directors.

The WV-type total rebuild is now a "conversion" option. The option is available on the Bu Ships plans schedule for TN/CO Board-42 rebuild (for both classes).

If your CO class BBs don't get seriously whacked, they upgrade normally into pretty decent boats. IRL, CO was actually scheduled for the MD configuration, but was doing pretty good service as it was, and didn't take any hard enough hits to put her into the yard for a sufficient time to get it done. Nevertheless, this last upgrade takes 4 months, and should be considered judiciously.

The WV (Board-42) "conversion" will get you a marginally better (but nicer looking) boat earlier, but you must take your best pre-treaty BBs off line for at least 9 months to get it done. Choices, choices. It's looking like the break point is at least 90 days worth of shipyard repair-type damage, in late '42, early '43, along with the conversion time, to get the benefit. Beyond that, more eficient to just let them flow. Woof !! this one was a female dog.

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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

Aaargh. It gets worse. Just got a pack of data from the Bremerton folks with all the War-II scheds, and it's looking like the Board-42 builds for the Big Five were running on a 12 month nominal baseline, with an added push depending on whether they got the A or C (or neither) blister hull adder earlier.

Pooh ! Gonna have to redo the 'times' again. Patience Buck, we'll get there.
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oldman45
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by oldman45 »

JWE, where they adding torp bulge, otherwise I wonder why they believed the time line would be 12 months?
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Buck Beach »

ORIGINAL: JWE

Aaargh. It gets worse. Just got a pack of data from the Bremerton folks with all the War-II scheds, and it's looking like the Board-42 builds for the Big Five were running on a 12 month nominal baseline, with an added push depending on whether they got the A or C (or neither) blister hull adder earlier.

Pooh ! Gonna have to redo the 'times' again. Patience Buck, we'll get there.


Ok John I can wait, just hope the old 67 year old body will cooperate.
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JWE
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by JWE »

ORIGINAL: oldman45
JWE, where they adding torp bulge, otherwise I wonder why they believed the time line would be 12 months?
Well ... there was three blister mods. There was the 1940 Blister-A that CO and MD got. They were seriously vulnerable to a hit causing a 12 degree list, so Blister-A was like a quick fix that raised freeboard. Good description in Friedman. Pre-war planning said 90 days for this, yard dogs quoted 120, actuals would have been faster, once the war got someone's attention.

WV didn't get Blister-A, so (assuming she don't get horrid whacked on opening day) her first refit puts her in line for that plus radar, 20 mikes, 1.1"s, and tricks her out a bit better than CO - and takes about 68+ days.

The second was a B mod for the MD-type rebuild in '44/'45, when they redid deck 01 with twin 5"/38s and added weight. It added roughly about 1000 tons displacement to compensate. That one wasn't all that bad because the yard had actual hull measurements of each ship, from previous refits, so could fab the new sections without reference to the ship - so just install time and the time required to do all the topside mods - maybe 30-40 days in drydock and the rest in the fitting ways.

Blister-C is for the major rebuild of TN and CO classes; basically a new exterior hull shell from about frame 17 aft. Beam increased to 114' and displacement significantly increased to compensate for serious weight increase. This alone would account for about 70-90 days drydock time. After refloat, the topsides were raped. Midships deck 00 and deck 01 were completely reconstructed. Tower and bridge were replaced with a standard CL configuration. Everything above deck 01 was removed and reconfigured. Reboilered, re-trunked, internally massively redone to support the new sensor systems.

It took TN 283 days to get this done; took CA 439; took WV more. Don't think 9 mos to a year is unreasonable, for this one.
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oldman45
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by oldman45 »

Disregard, it appears my computer or game likes to play tricks.
Buck Beach
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RE: Da Babes Mod

Post by Buck Beach »

OK I know you must be getting tired of this, if so please choose to ignore, but, here are 2 more ships with extensive use in the Pacific, that are not included in any scenario. Both are Norwegian:

M/V Lidvard- http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/lidvard.html

M/S Panama Express- http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/p ... press.html

Neither are what we consider Da babes. Narrative for the Panama Express states after service as a cargo ship she was converted into an 800 capacity troopship, in Brisbane.

I'd better get out of here before someone (with the initials JWE) hits me.

Buck
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