What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Runyon
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by Runyon »

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

So, the crux of my statement is: Why is the Allied player penalized for using 'special' historic assets yet the Japanese are not?

It would seem fair that if the Allied player can only use 2 atomic bombs (as were historically used) without penalty, then the Japanese player could only use 5k Kamikazes without penalty, then they take a victory point loss as well.

I assume the penalty is applied because of the magnitude of what the atomic bomb represents, not only in terms of the war itself, but it's impact on the history of the world from that point on. The kamikaze's were an act of desperation that had roots in Japan's cultural past. The decision to use them directly impacted the men who volunteered for the missions, and the soldiers on the other side who were their targets. While the thought of kamikazes was horrifying to many outside Japan, they didn't change the course of history.

The atomic bomb directly affected a mostly civilian population, and indirectly affected everybody else on the planet. Without getting into the debate of whether they should have been dropped or not, the fact remains that Truman did not make the decision lightly. He knew it was more than just a big weapon, it was also a geopolitical game changer. Any simulation of the Pacific war has to take that into account.
bsq
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by bsq »

ORIGINAL: che200

I do not want to use atomic bombs but Tokyo has 20000 AV in level 9 forts and i have found no solution how to attack it yet

20000 AV = 50 combat division (ish) equivalent - seems a very high number for that late in the war.

Any way chances are you've 'won' already so why not see what happens without the nukes. Bomb them, blockade them, surround them. Once supplies run low that 20k AV won't remain at that level. Don't recommend a direct assault on Tokyo bay as was planned IRL, just surround them and starve them out.
ORIGINAL: che200

Convoys have to have DEs and CVEs if you do not want to lose them and after the latest hot patch collisions have increased i have lost 10 AKs in the last 6 months to collisions.

You've been using convoys that are too big - break them into smaller units and then have them follow each other, collisions reduce.
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chesmart
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by chesmart »

Problem with bombing them is the ai has so much AA in tokyo that the casualties are horrendous reminds me of nikmod and tokyo has mines and very big guns so no naval bombadment. I need to use big convoys because i have to use 2-3 CVEs in each convoy because of kamis and 8-10 DDs, DEs because of subs so i have to concentrate them.
bsq
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by bsq »

ORIGINAL: che200

Problem with bombing them is the ai has so much AA in tokyo that the casualties are horrendous reminds me of nikmod and tokyo has mines and very big guns so no naval bombadment. I need to use big convoys because i have to use 2-3 CVEs in each convoy because of kamis and 8-10 DDs, DEs because of subs so i have to concentrate them.

One 6 - 8 ship plus escort CVE group can put up 60+ fighters on CAP and can cover all the ships in it's hex. Keep them tight, but not bunched and you can do a lot. Put your DE's into ASW groups and they work better.

I took 6 x 10 ship convoys round the top of Luzon. Used 2 x 4 DE ASW groups 1 8 x CVE with 16 DD's or DE's as cover in the hex (that's less than 100 ships in the hex) and used the FCTF stood off to interdict the airfields either side (Formosa and North Luzon). Kami attacks sure. The odd leaker (once per run I did this) but less than historical. If you assign all your cover to your transport TF's it's less efficient and nowhere near as effective.
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Chickenboy
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

So, the crux of my statement is: Why is the Allied player penalized for using 'special' historic assets yet the Japanese are not?
Well, Bradley7735-they're not. They get two 'freebie' nukes between July and August 1945. Using these will not affect the score one way or the other. Using MORE than these (3+) will shift the scoring downwards one scale.

I don't recall if there are additional effects with MORE nukes (one a month until May 1946=10 nukes?). So, one could say that if the allies were willing to accept a slight scale down in victory level that they could turn most major Japanese cities into radioactive self-lighting glass-floored parking lots by the end of the game.
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Chickenboy
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by Chickenboy »

Well, che200:  what's the verdict?  What was the a-bomb damage?
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chesmart
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by chesmart »

I reached June 19th 1945 and no Atom bombs yet ! The Los Alamos Scientists are probably assembling and testing the bombs for now.
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wwengr
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by wwengr »

ORIGINAL: che200

I reached June 19th 1945 and no Atom bombs yet ! The Los Alamos Scientists are probably assembling and testing the bombs for now.
First atom bomb attack was August 6, 1945.
I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!
fflaguna
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by fflaguna »

ORIGINAL: wwengr

ORIGINAL: che200

I reached June 19th 1945 and no Atom bombs yet ! The Los Alamos Scientists are probably assembling and testing the bombs for now.
First atom bomb attack was August 6, 1945.

Try telling that to the New Mexican desert! [:D]
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chesmart
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by chesmart »

 I am hoping of landing in japan in circa September 1945 and use the bombs on Tokyo and Osaka So i will use both bombs to soften the defenses of both cities. My landing will be Shimonoseki and my first wave will consist of 3 airborne Divs , 4 airborne Brigs, 6 Marine Divs , 4 Tank Brig and all the assault engineers i can find. That way I can isolate the Kyushu defenses for my follow up Divs.
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Bradley7735
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by Bradley7735 »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

So, the crux of my statement is: Why is the Allied player penalized for using 'special' historic assets yet the Japanese are not?
Well, Bradley7735-they're not. They get two 'freebie' nukes between July and August 1945. Using these will not affect the score one way or the other. Using MORE than these (3+) will shift the scoring downwards one scale.

I don't recall if there are additional effects with MORE nukes (one a month until May 1946=10 nukes?). So, one could say that if the allies were willing to accept a slight scale down in victory level that they could turn most major Japanese cities into radioactive self-lighting glass-floored parking lots by the end of the game.

Right, I understand that Allied players get to use the historical number without penalty. My question, is why is this restriction not placed on a Japanese player and their Kamikazes?

Use more than historical, then they should have the same VP penalty as an allied player using more nukes than historical.

BTW, using 3 A-bombs does not make a light scale down in victory level. the 3rd a-bomb takes your score from 'decisive' victory to 'marginal' victory. then to 'tie'. So, they can't reduce most cities to rubble. Just two. Then you are basically saying to your opponent ok, you win. but I'm taking out a city on the way.

But, feel free to use 10k kamikazes in the event a base within 20 hexes is taken in June 43.

A-bombs are special. Kamikazes are special. One is limited to using only on a historical time line and historical number of times. The other is potentially available more than a full year ahead of schedule and is nearly limitless on use. (I think)

And, there is some speculation that A-bombs do not hurt military targets at all. Just infrastructure. So, the Allied player is actually limited to a slightly (or heavily) worse munition.

Sorry che200 for hijacking your thread......
The older I get, the better I was.
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Chickenboy
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by Chickenboy »

Understood. Thanks for the clarification, Bradley7735. Your argument makes more sense now that I better understand it.

@che200: If rumors are substantiated and the A-bomb only damages infrastructure, you owe it to yourself to nuke Osaka and Tokyo. These are, argueably, the two most important 'infrastructure' plays in Japan. Forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki for now.
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chesmart
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RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?

Post by chesmart »

We will soon see. I will be posting screen-shots and results when i drop my first Abomb.
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