Detection Even if Under the Radar

[otisabuser2]

Obvious gap is in Scotland, below Wick ?

Had not tried to see if you can slip through anywhere else.

[Hard Sarge]

hehe, naw, a lot closer to France

but, as you can see, not really worth it

now, maybe tied into a day long battle with some 2000 other bombers and fighters in the air ???

if you want, I can give you a list of some of the gaps, and you can find me some coastal towns to add in ?

(oddly, radar sites have very poor OC ranges, they must all be busy looking at the scopes

[otisabuser2]

DooH ! ! ! ! !

Finding several now.

Yes, will gladly look into it.

[Hard Sarge]

yea once you pick up on the range of the OC, you can spot where other gaps may be

they are very dangerous to use, but they are there

[Nicholas Bell]

I think the point that Otis is making is that because raids were historically routed around as shown below, that players should be allowed to simulate this route on the existing smaller map by NOT having observation points, visible or invisible to the player which would prevent this. This would be an abstraction to allow for historical routes given the smaller map, admittedly ignoring the Scilly Islands.

[Nikademus]

Whether or not some raids were routed in this way is not the point. If in-game it proved an exploitable tactic with a consistant reasonable means of success by end-arounding the defenses it would ruin the flavor of the game due to players consistantly utilizing such a tactic vs. the more straightforward raids used by the LW between France. So far HS's tests are mixed on whether or not this might prove to be the case. Map edge generated situations must always be looked at with care.

[otisabuser2]

Hi Nikademus,

following the second part your rule even attacks from Norway seem out of bounds. The only raids permitted are the head on ones from France that proved unsucessful ?

As for the first part, the raids effects on South Wales are moderated by the flak and balloons on those targets. The defending player has the options of increasing these. There is also the matter of the RAF planes base at Pembrey and St Eval, on the return leg.

[otisabuser2]

Hi HS,

thought again about those spotting gaps afterwards.

We always knew they were there. I had disregarded them when we noticed the extended range the towns now spot these raids. Thought we did not try to plug them before because plotting long distance over land was an obvious cheat that was down to player ethics.

We had to put the coastal towns on the south coast because AI had no conscience. The low level airfield attacks it uses were historical. Hence the additional places. This allows the historical raids and genuine spotting process.

As I see it we only need to add more places where the AI tries it and can sneak through undetected. Say, north of Southend. Have not seen it anywhere else ?

[Hard Sarge]

Nick

give me more details on these historical raids, I have never seen or read about a single one ?

and to be honest, that is a pretty long, low level flight

also, LF 3 after Aug 21st pretty much went over to Night bombing, as most of the fighters were shifted to LF 2

most of the raids I have details on, were pretty much right in and right out (even if deep) not much fancy flying hundreds of miles out of the way, or at wave top height

plus Nav is a BIG Issue with these kinds of raids

I could see some Condors making a swing like that, hunting for some shipping ?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Hi Nikademus,

following the second part your rule even attacks from Norway seem out of bounds. The only raids permitted are the head on ones from France that proved unsucessful ?

As for the first part, the raids effects on South Wales are moderated by the flak and balloons on those targets. The defending player has the options of increasing these. There is also the matter of the RAF planes base at Pembrey and St Eval, on the return leg.

Hello,

I don't honestly recall stating any specific "rule". I voiced an opinion based on developer experience that sometimes programmers do have to institute controls and limits to prevent exploits and gamey tactics. "Map edge" exploits are as old as computer wargames.

On the subject of Historical...see HS's post. . Luft 5's attempt to hit Northern UK on the other hand had a purpose and target and was based on the assumption that the Zerstorers could provide adequate escort. They were wrong. Given 5's positioning, there wasn't really another option. They tried it. It failed, it stopped. Technically it also doesn't constitute a map edge issue since it's not near a map edge.

[Nicholas Bell]

Low level flights the entire route - none. I didn't mean to imply that. In game terms the flight is at such and such altitude the whole length, but the reality was that raids would start higher and drop down to low altitude (and then often climb to bomb). The raids I was referring to were the night raids on the West Coast. I don't know what height they flew the route but often the Blitz attacks were conducted at below 5000' over the target.

I just want to make it clear I am not asking for alterations so that I can conduct unrealistic, gamey, sneak attacks. The illustration I posted was to help others understand what Otis was talking about. While it would be nice to have a huge map to allow for exploring possibilities, I understand there are limits "we" have to live with. [:)]

[otisabuser2]

Hi Nikademus,

didn't say Norway was near the map edge. Your definition actually referred to "end-arounding the defenses ", which an attack from Norway clearly is.

Perhaps this example won't get us anywhere.

Try this one. Suppose there was an unlikely scenario where the right edge of the map was cropped like this below. All raids would now have to be routed over Kent to get to Hoffmans Bearing plant now.

I could argue that the map should be extended right, to enable me to fly around Dover/Margate to avoid flak there. I should be able to plot further to east to keep out of range of the RAF. Finally, this now stops a low-level approach to the coast near Walton radar, because I'll be spotted over Kent whatever.

I might be stuffed trying to find an example of where such a raid really happened. But it seems perfectly reasonable that I should be able to do it.

It's much the same in the western map edge now.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Hi Nikademus,

didn't say Norway was near the map edge. Your definition actually referred to "end-arounding the defenses ", which an attack from Norway clearly is.

My definition tied the issue of utilizing map edges to get around defenses by the finding of an exploitable tactic. The two are thus linked in my "definition" Further, Norway is not an example of doing an end-around. Norway was an example of a means to attack Northern England, which had it's own defense. (13 Group and a chain of ground defenses) Thus its not a valid comparison here.

I might be stuffed trying to find an example of where such a raid really happened. But it seems perfectly reasonable that I should be able to do it.

It's much the same in the western map edge now.

I don't agree. Part of the problem here is that the word "historical" got thrown in which we seem to have cleared up now as there was no historical attempt and for good reason....it wasn't practical due to the difficulties involved. If the game were to reward this maneuver enough to encourage players to utilize it in lieu of conventional tactics, then you have an exploit.

[otisabuser2]

I think the wording " utilizing map edges to get around defenses " and "exploit" are clouding the real issue here.

If we look back to Nick's original raid, it is clear that he is not flying close to the map edge to gain any advantage of using that border. He is actually aiming to fly around the tip of Cornwall.

Flying around genuine edges of defences is tactically sound and perfectly legitimate, where fuel and space permits. ( See Dover example ).

Had the map border been 100 miles to the west, Nick's raid would have been 50 miles clear of the map edge.

Had the map border been 200 miles to the west, his raid would have been 150 miles clear of the map edge.

This is no map-edge exploit.

Also note South Wales was defended, with flak, balloons, airfields and planes. There is no cheat intended.

Attacking South Wales from Brest is comparable to attacking Scotland from Norway. It's just the other flank of the main effort.