Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank**

[undercovergeek]

Looking at testing this against the AI but just wanted to know what you guys thought - the Japanese, primarily want to take Singapore, Manilla, Soerbaja, Balikpapn, Palembang, Miri asap - even if you owned most of Java youd still want the central hub of Soerbaja and the same for Sumatra and Palembang - so on turn 1 i land at Mersing with everything for Singapore cross the peninsular and take Malacca to cut the supply line and then attack Singapore within a few days - land at Miri, and then load all the other divisions into 1 TF and drop them off at Palembang, then Soerbaja and then finish at Balikpapan - all doable in a number of days - and then in the 2nd wave bring in the support troops and garrison units - so within maybe 2 weeks i have essentially everything i came for and then can fan out into sumatra, java and start clearing up Malaya from the bottom and not the top

[Marty A]

Depends on ally strategy. as japan i rarely take any of the oil fields until last. means stay out of miri palembang balikapan. why? because once you own ally can bomb. if he own can not bomb. singapore yes you want 5 or more division assault. but i take java before any of the other oil cities. my style.

[vlcz]

I tried the mersing variation and it was a big success for me, paired with a first turn invasion in singkawang to establish a topedo airbase ASAP, also done the miri, and balikpapan early invasions (pairedx with kendari and Ambon), but palembang AND soerabaja looks too much a bite (in the end did take palembang before singers anyway...)

[findmeifyoucan]

Good luck with that. Assuming the Allies sit on their asses with their surface fleets and in ports not opposing you on anything sure that is achievable. LOL Oh and also assuming the Allies do not mine Singapore at all to make sure you cannot assault it from the sea as it will take at least a month to walk through Malasia to get to Singapore with a reasonable and realistic amount of resistance.

Was this a dream you had last night or something? ))

[Marty A]

Sounds to me like you have never played the game findmeifyoucan. singapore starts mined and landing at mersing on turn 1 is possible without a lot of effort although a decent ally will at least hurt it. japan can be in singapore in force in a few days.

[findmeifyoucan]

Actually lots as the Allies. New as Japanese and only tried once to assual Singapore and it wasn't nice. I was looking at all your objectives stated not just Singapore. I look at the hole picture when I play the game.

[Mynok]

You aren't going to successfully prosecute a Mersing invasion that early against a human. Your planes cannot cover that far south.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You aren't going to successfully prosecute a Mersing invasion that early against a human. Your planes cannot cover that far south.

It might be interesting if KB was present to support the invasion. Without KB's aircover and defensive shield I agree that it would be inadvisable.

Which is another reason that I'd recommend blasting Manila to kingdom come with KB and LBA on turn one. Forget about Pearl Harbor, sink those treacherous allied subs while you can! Then KB can support a turn 4-5 invasion of southern Malay.

[topeverest]

As primarily an allied player, I would offer a couple points.
1. An experienced Allied player will be able to subvert your Malaya strategy to the point where you gain nothing material over a traditional approach. You also stand to lose more naval and air assets. That said, an inexperienced or unlucky opponent could fall for the strategy. I would ask you what does taking the peninsula a few weeks earlier really get you given your committement risk.
2. Most allied players will try to evacuate as much supply and fuel from Batavia and Soerabaya with some removed from each of the other major centers. This island is by far the best defended. An experienced allied player can and will thwart any small attack on that island. He or she also can make a major naval and air battle happen. If the Japs go in too early without sufficent air and naval forces, it is a recipie for disaster. For this reason, I would reccomend bagging the borneo assets and getting a major airbase within range to attrite the air and naval forces there prior to an invasion.
3. I agree Palembang is ripe for quick capture assuming you knock down the airpower at Singapore.

In closing, let me offer that such a strategy is very aggressive. Certainly it can work, but it does also open the Jap player up to incremental losses and the potenetial for a major defeat that does not exist with a more traditional approach.

[Q-Ball]

Mynok is correct in that LBA won't reach that far, exposing you to Vildebeest and Swordfish attack. Without aircover, those planes are dangerous, and though you will get ashiore, you can expect losses. They have enough oomph to take down a Kongo, and you don't need that kind of loss.

You also can't do it unless Force Z is neutralized. If you are landing at Mersing turn 1, you are probably allowing your opponent to move Force Z out of harms' way.

I think a landing after the first week or two is highly adviseable. You can aircover from Khota Bharu by then, or using Baby KB. You can set up a torpedo-capable base at Singkawang to keep Force Z away. You can use reinforcment units that are not in the first wave. The only problem with this is that a competent Allied player will know this, and move all the Aussie units to Mersing turn one to guard against this. Pretty much ends that plan.

Malaya is a big problem for Japan, because 2 Bns can keep you out of Singapore until January; just enough to guard against Paras, and make you walk down the peninsula.

One thing I would advocate as a MUST: Set up some sort of torp-capable base at Singkawang or Kuching the first week, and put some Netties there. You need to close the port, and that sealane to Allied shipping.

RE: MANILA STRIKE: Chickenboy raises an old debate; should KB strike Manila turn one? I can see the arguments, but I am against it personally. For many reasons.

First, the targets are better at Pearl. At Manila, you sink alot of subs, but that's the only real target, the rest are ships the Allies can afford to lose. At Pearl, you can sink BBs, or at least put them in the shop so long you won't see them the first year of the war. I have read "forget BB's, too hard to supply/fuel", but I think that's bunk. The Allies have gobs of fuel, plenty of tankers, lots of AKE conversions, with a little advanced planning you can keep those babies sailing. I also think in AE, BBs are MORE valuable than WITP, not less. Why? They are harder to kill. Bombs don't work, and LBA in general is less of a threat to shipping. This makes control of water around targets imperitive, and BBs are the ultimate aribiter of that control.

Second, is what you do with KB afterwards. You don't need KB to advance in the SRA; you need surface combattants, and you need the IJN LBA, but not Carriers. You need to think and plan ahead to get torp-capable bases set up; once those are set-up, you now effectively control all water within 12 hexes (Zero escort range). KB is better spent countering the USN CVs. If you want to take Rabaul or PM early, which I advise, you need carrier support. The thing is you don't need ALL your CVs; split a couple off and send those to the SRA if you want to. This is the only point in the game as Japan I would split CVs, but the first two months there is minimal risk to doing so. Even worse, in the SRA the Allies will always know where KB is, which means they have freedom of action elsewhere to do what they want. That can mean convoys getting reinforcements out, it can mean USN CVs hitting your Rabaul invasion forces, it can mean many things, all of them bad for you.

The KB in the SRA will spend alot of time LRCAP and hitting land targets, both of which are a complete waste, because with a little planning that job can easily be done by your LBA.

[findmeifyoucan]

Very well put Q-Ball! I cannot disagree with any of your points. I would only add that hitting Pearl also does a nice number in Pearl's Air base not only damaging it severely but killing a number of aircraft that you won't see later thus slowing the Americans down. Otherwise hitting Manila instead means you will see all those aircraft not taken out at Pearl showing up in Central Pacific in a couple of weeks.

[Mynok]

I've been studying the Malaya problem intermittently both in game and via AARs. It's really much more difficult to cut off the Malaya troops from Singapore now. I'm pondering an armored thrust from Khota Baru down to Malacca but the units available to do that are pretty insignificant. Not sure it can be done against the available defenders. An infantry thrust just doesn't seem to be fast enough over the secondary rail connection.

There aren't enough paratroops to make a difference either.

[Chickenboy]

RE: the Manila gambit:

Q-ball: It's an oldie but a goodie. I'm not convinced of the primacy of the PH attack in AE.

You're effectively trading ~20-25 dead allied subs, a bunch of auxiliaries and a likely bag of a CA (Houston) for (average) 2 sunk prewar BBs and (average) 4 heavily damaged prewar BBs. Those 20-25 dead allied subs are going to put a much greater proportional hurt on my transport of resources in 1943-1945 than the 2 killed allied BBs will.

With the IJN submarine lethality being unrestrained because of doctrine 'adjustments', I believe that I'll have an opportunity to put a few TTs into an old, slow prewar allied BB sooner or later. A couple of 53cm fish will put one of these BBs into the yards for months too, just as easily as a very expensive (and, I argue superfluous) air raid over Pearl Harbor.

It would be a foolish IJN admiral that would squander KB's aircraft attacking predominantly land targets. The most effective implementation in the DEI is port attacking Manila and then extending the favor to Soerbaja and / or Batavia in short order. Singapore and Hong Kong would have to be cleared by the allies tootsweet, lest they be charnal houses for the RN / ABDA navies. Thus, an early Mersing landing becomes quite feasible under LRCAP from large numbers of IJN aircraft between days 4-5.

There are other opportunities that are present that I cannot comment on at this time.

KB's presence ensures that slower RN ships will flee (unless suicidally inclined), diminishing the effect of those nasty surface SCTF intercepts in the confined waters of the DEI. For those hyperaggressive Allied admirals that move Enterprise and Lexington WEST on December 8 into the DEI, the KB will deter this provocative action. The presence of KB could enable earlier landings anywhere in the DEI by supporting the landings.

About the only regret I have at not nailing Pearl is the gobs of P40s, B17s and PBYs that I didn't destroy. These make a nice pile of replacement aircraft that I'll have to fight my way through with LBA. In this sense I agree with findmeifyoucan.

In general, I think the Manila port option is an underrated and underappreciated consideration. I brought the topic up not so much for the debate of its merits, but so that the OP can broaden his strategic horizons a bit. That's a great thing about this game. Thinking outside of the box and trying to do things differently.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I've been studying the Malaya problem intermittently both in game and via AARs. It's really much more difficult to cut off the Malaya troops from Singapore now. I'm pondering an armored thrust from Khota Baru down to Malacca but the units available to do that are pretty insignificant. Not sure it can be done against the available defenders. An infantry thrust just doesn't seem to be fast enough over the secondary rail connection.

There aren't enough paratroops to make a difference either.

Gobs of IJA LBA and air support at Jahore Bahuru and Alor Star will help quite a bit with this. The new 'movement model' of AE ensures high casualties on allied troop movements that are unfortunate enough to be caught under movement orders or, worse, strategic movement. They who hesitate will truly be lost.

If the allies don't start falling back day 1, they will have large numbers of troops killed or disrupted by LBA or manuevering LCUs. The Western road from Alor Star south is a great place for your armored assault units to move with rail movement from anywhere in Malay. Things slow a bit near the Southern tip of the peninsula, but effecting a Singapore defeat in January is still quite realistic.

[vlcz]

Can not agree with q-ball this time, Mersing can be covered , khota is taked easily with only the fist wave, and singkawang at the same time with some other (*) fleet, and you can cover mersing from both bases quite well. Done against human, and very useful specially if he is taking a Sir Robin.

[Mynok]

The only aircraft which can cover are Oscars and there are only a couple groups of those. That isn't enough against a competent human who is determined to resist your landings.

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
The only aircraft which can cover are Oscars and there are only a couple groups of those. That isn't enough against a competent human who is determined to resist your landings.

And zeros, you got zeros too, and they can reach within two days quite easily both bases..

I will not enter in definitions of "competence", and of course can "assure" this (or any other) opening being a "war-winner" by itself (thankfully), every opening/strategy can be countered, but this is a real posible one and quite doable (if that word really exist in english...[8|])

[nashvillen]

As a noob jap fanboy I am finding that you can surprise an opponent who is used to the AI with some off the wall and strange uses of both the KB and the Baby KB. Also, if you are willing to risk them, some aggressive use of your transports can lead to some exploitations of holes in the alliance defense.

I have sunk two CVs, 10 BBs, and either seriously damaged or sunk another CV in my game which is just starting FEB 42. My biggest problem so far is getting factories to retool and moving resources/oil around! I am sure my opponet, who is a most cabable gamer, will give me more issues to deal with as the war goes on. [:D]

[Ketza]

I always looked at the Manila strat in this way.

On the low end of the potential of the american subs at Manila lets say that on average over the course of the war each one of those subs sinks 5 ships per year. Thats 125 ships per year those subs could sink or some 500+ merchant ships over the course of the war after accounting for some of the allied subs being sunk.

That vrs sinking/damaging some old BBs and 100 or so extra allied planes on turn one.

A strategic blow vrs a tactical blow.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: vlcz

ORIGINAL: Mynok
The only aircraft which can cover are Oscars and there are only a couple groups of those. That isn't enough against a competent human who is determined to resist your landings.

And zeros, you got zeros too, and they can reach within two days quite easily both bases..

Sure but then you have to provide carrier cover for your Celebes and eastern Borneo operations. There aren't enough Zeros to do both plus put down the Philippines air force.