I used to respect Shelby Foote...

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Dennistoun
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Dennistoun »


quote]ORIGINAL: parusski


I only have a few things to point out about Foote's bias. Foote treats Robert E. Lee's disastrous debut in Western Virinia harshly. Lee was a laughable failure at that stage of the war and Foote says so. Jefferson Davis - from my multiple readings/listening to The Civil War, I find Foote is more critical of Davis than any other personality of the war(except Benjamin Butler maybe). He was brutal in his portrayal of the Confederate president.

It is also worth considering how Foote portrayed General Grant. Overall he is fair and complimentary about the man. He shows Grant understanding the need to spill blood while hating the bloodshed-even being nauseated by blood. Foote is also fair when it comes to Grants drinking. He makes a point that no one ever really saw Grant intoxicated.

Having so far read the first book in Mr Foote's trilogy some months ago, I have to agree with what Parusski's interpretation by Mr Foote of Lee and Grant in the narrative and IIRC did not Jackson receive a hard time from the author during the Seven Days Battles for being tardy? It is a big read and very detailed. Also, James McPherson's BCoF really opened up this Scot's eyes with facts that I didn't know about and it is so interesting how far this conflict and it's causes go back. Such an interesting period.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm
Thank you, Parusski. You are correct, and I did not mean to imply that Foote is totally biased. As you point out, he was fair in his treatment of some of the characters in the narrative. I just felt that in some other respects he was not fair, in the way that I'm unused to reading in a historical document.

Keep in mind that Foote's is primarily a _military_ history of the war. Unlike McPherson, who tries to give more of the "big picture", Foote mainly focuses and is interested in what happened once the shooting started. Honestly, I'm a first generation American who grew up in "the North" but I found no real issues with Foote, some slight bias here and there but nothing that overshadows the overall excellence of his work. If you're concern is of errors of omission as far as the larger context, I think you've misunderstood what Foote was writing here. I've read plenty of great military histories that did not spend a lot of time focusing on other contemporary issues, even if they were key to the genesis of the conflict. Seriously though, read on and I think anyone who reads both Foote and McPherson will have an excellent picture of the war as a whole.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Phatguy »

 The unfortunate thing is no book dealing in history is ever free of it(bias), no matter how slight.  The Solution: stop reading,toss books into trash, grab a bag of potato chips and become one with the xbox..[:D]

But anyways, having read a myriad number historical books, both excellent and trashy I can honestly say none have ever been free of bias.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by parusski »

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm
ORIGINAL: parusski

Hmm, I think you are missing a LOT.

I only have a few things to point out about Foote's bias. Foote treats Robert E. Lee's disastrous debut in Western Virinia harshly. Lee was a laughable failure at that stage of the war and Foote says so. Jefferson Davis - from my multiple readings/listening to The Civil War, I find Foote is more critical of Davis than any other personality of the war(except Benjamin Butler maybe). He was brutal in his portrayal of the Confederate president.

It is also worth considering how Foote portrayed General Grant. Overall he is fair and complimentary about the man. He shows Grant understanding the need to spill blood while hating the bloodshed-even being nauseated by blood. Foote is also fair when it comes to Grants drinking. He makes a point that no one ever really saw Grant intoxicated.

We must also look at how Foote presents Lincoln. Throughout Lincoln is shown to be crafty, wise, calculating, intelligent and resolute. Lincoln's skill in dealing with his difficult cabinet and a meddling congress is showcased by Foote.

No need to point out that Foote attempts to downplay the Fort Pillow massacre. Contemporary newspaper accounts from both southern and northern papers stated that the forts garrison never surrendered, the inference being the black Union soldiers died in combat. The reports from that horrible slaughter have always been muddled, no two are in agreement. So Foote, being a southerner, does no injustice here.

Well, nothing I write will change the mind of someone already committed to an idea. But I just wanted to give my 1/2 cents worth.

Thank you, Parusski. You are correct, and I did not mean to imply that Foote is totally biased. As you point out, he was fair in his treatment of some of the characters in the narrative. I just felt that in some other respects he was not fair, in the way that I'm unused to reading in a historical document.

As Prince of Eckmuhl points out, the irony of Foote almost completely ignoring slavery in his narrative is juxtaposed with his frequent mentioning that the South was fighting against a government that was threatening to deprive them of their life, liberty and property.

As far as balancing Foote's perspective with Bruce Catton's works, I'm almost afraid to read Catton's works, because I don't want to read Northern propaganda any more than I do Southern. I am merely interested in a balanced, fair account of the war, showing both sides with as much insight and "truth" as possible, uncolored by bias. That's why I started this thread in the first place. I had so much hope for Foote's narrative, but was turned off by his colorization of the facts.


History is like memory, it produces, rather than reproduces. Historians, especially those of the 20th century, have huge amounts of material about the past. They must select content information for their books. But who determines the guidelines of choice, the basis of the selection and it's interpretation?? In the end it is the historian's value system and philosophy of life that determines content and interpretation. Therefore, in spite of objectivity goals, personal belief ALWAYS colors content

As others have pointed, out any book dealing with history will have some level of bias. History is my number one reading topic, has been for 30 years. I have never read a historical account of anything that was bias free. The nature of man does not allow seeing any topic through black and white lenses. To get the best perspective of the past one must read multiple authors, with the knowledge that each will relate things differently. I, as a staunch conservative, learned long ago to get past the nearly unbearable liberal slant in books I read. Modern historians(since the 60's) tend to lean left. That does not make their writings any less valid, or enjoyable. Nor does it make them any less readable. A man learns to look past it and see the bigger picture.

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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by mantrain »

I didn't get that from Foote. However, you wouldn't get that much different perspective even from Shaara. There was a romantic fervor which swept up the south into rebellion. How else do you inspire a country to rebel against itself. There is no doubt as to the bumbeling of the Union leadership throughout; Even Meade failed to press on his offensive following Gettysburg, Lee and his troops are allowed to slip accross the Rapahanok.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by SlickWilhelm »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If you're concern is of errors of omission as far as the larger context, I think you've misunderstood what Foote was writing here.

You might be entirely correct, Erik. It could be that my own "Northern bias" as to what a terrible thing slavery was has colored my own perception of Mr. Foote's work.

Funny thing, perception. In my example above of Foote's use of the word "decontamination" to denote an absence of Union soldiers in Texas, I was appalled when I read it. But I can see how someone from Texas may have smiled knowingly and nodded while reading the same sentence.

Moving along, I'm very much enjoying Stephen Sears' account of the battle of Chancellorsville. He's getting into the kind of detail that was missing in both McPherson's and Foote's works that I find fascinating.


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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by SlickWilhelm »

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker
 The unfortunate thing is no book dealing in history is ever free of it(bias), no matter how slight. 

I'm not so sure I agree with that statement, AL, but perhaps it's more a matter of personal perception when one is reading.


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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Randomizer »

Shelby Foote's works are a narrative rather than straight history, told through the eyes of a story teller by somebody who was a good Southern Boy when the last of the Civil War veterans were dying off.  Certainly he is biased but his bias is not that of the fanatic, he does no harm to anyone and even train wreck leaders like Pope and Beauregard are treated with fairness and sensitivity.
 
Where MacPherson and professional historians analyse, critique and assess, Shelby Foote tells a story, sometimes humourous, never bitter and one of the most readable history works ever written in my opinion.  Use with caution, being aware of author bias is the first step in avoiding it but I would recommend just sit back and enjoy the yarn.  The Civil War, A Narrative is well worth the effort
 
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Phatguy »

Every writer has some kind of bias, religious, political, ideological etc etc..I think it is impossible to be absolutely subjective and neutral in writing
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by parusski »

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Shelby Foote's works are a narrative rather than straight history, told through the eyes of a story teller by somebody who was a good Southern Boy when the last of the Civil War veterans were dying off.  Certainly he is biased but his bias is not that of the fanatic, he does no harm to anyone and even train wreck leaders like Pope and Beauregard are treated with fairness and sensitivity.

Where MacPherson and professional historians analyse, critique and assess, Shelby Foote tells a story, sometimes humourous, never bitter and one of the most readable history works ever written in my opinion.  Use with caution, being aware of author bias is the first step in avoiding it but I would recommend just sit back and enjoy the yarn.  The Civil War, A Narrative is well worth the effort

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Randomizer, you have given the best response so far.

MacPherson analyzes everything he writes. Foote only narrates, telling us what HE thinks is most interesting.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by ilovestrategy »


How, exactly, were the Southerners an "oppressed minority"?


They were not. They considered themselves to be. I was born and raised in Louisiana I know that many people still consider themselves a different kind of people than the North.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by ezzler »

As a non USA citizen I found only a slight bias in Foote's works. Nothing tht major to make me give up. I almost gave up because my arms ached holding it, but not through bias.McPherson got me interested in a topic I had no knowledge of at all. A lucky 1st pick.
As others have said, Sears is fantastic and Lee's Lieutenants, even the 'new' version, is a real struggle. There is a new book by called imaginatively "The civil war " by John Keegan.
Has anyone read it?

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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by darken92 »

The only ACW book I own is Shelby Foote's trilogy.  I too wanted a "single" source that would cover the war and be good to read.  It is definately easy to read, holds a lot of details and one of the better books I have read.
 
Certainly there is a small bias, authors need to pick and choose their material but overall I feel it is well worth the read.  Just to clarify, I have a very definate bias against the South, I would go so far as to suggest, from my point of view, there was clearly a "right" and "wrong" side in this war with the South being in the wrong.  Even having a definate bias myself against the South I thought the books more then fair.
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by ilovestrategy »

ORIGINAL: darken92

The only ACW book I own is Shelby Foote's trilogy.  I too wanted a "single" source that would cover the war and be good to read.  It is definately easy to read, holds a lot of details and one of the better books I have read.

Certainly there is a small bias, authors need to pick and choose their material but overall I feel it is well worth the read.  Just to clarify, I have a very definate bias against the South, I would go so far as to suggest, from my point of view, there was clearly a "right" and "wrong" side in this war with the South being in the wrong.  Even having a definate bias myself against the South I thought the books more then fair.


Oh there is no doubt about that. Even me, growing up in Louisiana and loving the Stars and Bars, even I admit the South was wrong. To me, it's like loving your family even though you know 100% sure they were just wrong.

Even now, I still refer to the fine folks up North as Yankees! [:D]

Sorry, I had an emote attack. [X(]
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

Being a Northerner who has grown up in the South, I can tell you the Civil War is still recent history/memory for many ...

I can atest to that; when this Connectitut Yankee attended Basic at Fort Jackson, SC, I saw T-Shirts for sale bearing Gen. Sherman's face and a "No" emblem thru it.

We had a hurricane during training; the local newspapers actually compared the damage it did w/that of the general's march to the sea!
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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Capt. Harlock »

Even now, I still refer to the fine folks up North as Yankees!

Does it bother Southrons when natives of other countries refer to all Americans as Yankees?
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Does it bother Southrons when natives of other countries refer to all Americans as Yankees?

Not when Hugo Chavez does it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9QtZkT8OBQ

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RE: I used to respect Shelby Foote...

Post by Gil R. »

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
Even now, I still refer to the fine folks up North as Yankees!

Does it bother Southrons when natives of other countries refer to all Americans as Yankees?


The same question might be asked of Red Sox fans...
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