You are correct, Sir; the 19th Division starts in Korea. The "Tiger Division" historically was transferred from Korea in '44 and died on Luzon.
I will keep a lookout for Chinese units; I would expect units to be leaving Manchuria at this stage.
Hunting the Hibiki: Q-Ball (Allies) v Cuttlefish (Japan)
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
-
Capt. Harlock
- Posts: 5379
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
RE: Victory Disease
thanks primarily to the Spitfires of the RAAF. Not sure why the Aussies get them before the RAF, but there it is.
Not that it matters, but it makes sense. What you're actually seeing is the upgraded models of the Spit; the early models were of course in combat before Pearl Harbor. When the RAF gets a batch of more advanced Spitfires, the logical place for them is defending Malta or London, which are far more important than Burma at this stage of WWII. The Aussies have their own priorities -- in fact, you pretty much get to determine them!
Your strategy looks very good. I confess to great disappointment that Cuttlefish backed off on the bombardment of Ambon -- the peanut gallery wants to see blood in the water!
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?
--Victor Hugo
--Victor Hugo
-
Chickenboy
- Posts: 24646
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: Victory Disease
This game has featured less naval combat than any I have ever seen. We have yet to have a CV battle, the only CV not floating is Long Island, and the biggest ship I have lost outside of Pearl Harbor is CA Houston. Very strange.
My philosphy is that I don't like to give battle for battle's sake, only if I will have superior force, or there is a bigger objective. During the Japanese expansion, it was easier to hit and run, and run away when KB showed up. So far during my offensive, the IJN has been a day late it seems. Both of us are reluctant to move our CVs into the other guy's territory where LBA can intervene.
Not sure what is going on around Ambon, other than the IJN is really hanging around close.
Combat Report, Jan 9, 1942
Air Action over Ambon: Kido Butai parked 3 hexes north of Ambon, and air combat broke out.
First, 2 Marine SBD units at Ambon launched attacks. They got slaughtered and didn't hit anything. Then, VALS hit the port at Ambon, but were raked by AA and Spits. He lost over 50 A/C on the day. The Spit units are still in good shape, the P-40s there are not.
Cuttlefish says the Port Attack was an error on settings. I guess he hoped to hit transports, which were there yesterday, but gone today.
I am still a little short on supplies at this point, I don't really have enough to run bombing ops, and I am short AV support to. Nevertheless, I packed the base with fighters, in case he tries an attack tommorow.
Efate: Another Betty attack was turned back by CAP. The first ground attack was 1-1 and dropped the forts, so I might have the base tommorow. Another Houdini-like escape from a botched invasion over there. I need to fire Adm. Ghormely and get a better invasion commander over there!
Once Efate falls, I have 4 engineering units that should pretty quickly get an airbase going. This will spell doom for Luganville, as I have 2+ Divisions fully prepped. Once Luganville falls, we will land on New Caledonia, and complete the isolation/conquest of the New Hebrides. This, coupled with the Torres Strait moves, will really shorten supply lines to the DEI.
The Fleet: I am also anxious to move more fleet units into the DEI. I have 6 USN BBs around the New Hebrides and all my CVEs; these would come in handy in the DEI.
My philosphy is that I don't like to give battle for battle's sake, only if I will have superior force, or there is a bigger objective. During the Japanese expansion, it was easier to hit and run, and run away when KB showed up. So far during my offensive, the IJN has been a day late it seems. Both of us are reluctant to move our CVs into the other guy's territory where LBA can intervene.
Not sure what is going on around Ambon, other than the IJN is really hanging around close.
Combat Report, Jan 9, 1942
Air Action over Ambon: Kido Butai parked 3 hexes north of Ambon, and air combat broke out.
First, 2 Marine SBD units at Ambon launched attacks. They got slaughtered and didn't hit anything. Then, VALS hit the port at Ambon, but were raked by AA and Spits. He lost over 50 A/C on the day. The Spit units are still in good shape, the P-40s there are not.
Cuttlefish says the Port Attack was an error on settings. I guess he hoped to hit transports, which were there yesterday, but gone today.
I am still a little short on supplies at this point, I don't really have enough to run bombing ops, and I am short AV support to. Nevertheless, I packed the base with fighters, in case he tries an attack tommorow.
Efate: Another Betty attack was turned back by CAP. The first ground attack was 1-1 and dropped the forts, so I might have the base tommorow. Another Houdini-like escape from a botched invasion over there. I need to fire Adm. Ghormely and get a better invasion commander over there!
Once Efate falls, I have 4 engineering units that should pretty quickly get an airbase going. This will spell doom for Luganville, as I have 2+ Divisions fully prepped. Once Luganville falls, we will land on New Caledonia, and complete the isolation/conquest of the New Hebrides. This, coupled with the Torres Strait moves, will really shorten supply lines to the DEI.
The Fleet: I am also anxious to move more fleet units into the DEI. I have 6 USN BBs around the New Hebrides and all my CVEs; these would come in handy in the DEI.
There will be Blood!
Combat Report, Jan 10, 1943
Capt Harlock and others, I think you are about to get your wish. There will be blood tommorow! Cuttlefish is counter-invading Ambon! I did not see this coming! The day before, the closest transports on Nav Search were at Menado, so I am surprised. The investigaive board will have to wait though, because there are bigger fish to fry, specifically stopping this invasion!
The Battle: The picture below shows the set-up. I am going all-in. As you know, I have been reluctant to commit the USN CVs against KB, but I am now. Why?
1. I am using 200 aircraft from Lautem to support; they are within 6 hexes of KB, 7 of the invasion beaches, so this is like extra CVs.
2. Ambon has 100 fighters; these should provide extra support for ESCORTS over KB and the invasion fleets
3. Finally, I have Hermes and Copahee, they can provide an extra 60 Wildcats over the USN CVs
4. If things go badly, I have a safe port right behind me, Darwin
5. Finally, I would really like to stop this. He needs to get at least 3 divisions ashore to have a chance, maybe more if they are not prepped, which would be doubtful.
So, I feel like this is as close to my "Home Turf" as I can get.
Even if the CV battle goes badly, I am moving 7 BBs into that hex as well; they will then be 6 hexes from the invasion beaches. Even if my CVs are toasted, they can hit the invasion ships during the night. They may still be in position to be hit during the rebound, but I am thinking the KB strike force will be spent in a CV battle. I have identified at least 3 BBs NOT in the area, so I may have superiority in this regard.
So, dear readers, you wanted blood? Unless Cuttlefish pulls up anchor and abandons the troops he has landed (53rd Division so far BTW), there will be blood tommorow. I guarantee! Whose? Well, you'll have to check back!
Bad Timing!: The unfortuante thing is that I am leaving town tommorow for the country to get 1/2 a cow, so I'll be offline after ONE more day. Talk about bad timing! What are you going to do, I have a family to feed delicious beef to......
Oh By the Way: Efate fell, which would be a major event in any other report, but not in this one.....
Capt Harlock and others, I think you are about to get your wish. There will be blood tommorow! Cuttlefish is counter-invading Ambon! I did not see this coming! The day before, the closest transports on Nav Search were at Menado, so I am surprised. The investigaive board will have to wait though, because there are bigger fish to fry, specifically stopping this invasion!
The Battle: The picture below shows the set-up. I am going all-in. As you know, I have been reluctant to commit the USN CVs against KB, but I am now. Why?
1. I am using 200 aircraft from Lautem to support; they are within 6 hexes of KB, 7 of the invasion beaches, so this is like extra CVs.
2. Ambon has 100 fighters; these should provide extra support for ESCORTS over KB and the invasion fleets
3. Finally, I have Hermes and Copahee, they can provide an extra 60 Wildcats over the USN CVs
4. If things go badly, I have a safe port right behind me, Darwin
5. Finally, I would really like to stop this. He needs to get at least 3 divisions ashore to have a chance, maybe more if they are not prepped, which would be doubtful.
So, I feel like this is as close to my "Home Turf" as I can get.
Even if the CV battle goes badly, I am moving 7 BBs into that hex as well; they will then be 6 hexes from the invasion beaches. Even if my CVs are toasted, they can hit the invasion ships during the night. They may still be in position to be hit during the rebound, but I am thinking the KB strike force will be spent in a CV battle. I have identified at least 3 BBs NOT in the area, so I may have superiority in this regard.
So, dear readers, you wanted blood? Unless Cuttlefish pulls up anchor and abandons the troops he has landed (53rd Division so far BTW), there will be blood tommorow. I guarantee! Whose? Well, you'll have to check back!
Bad Timing!: The unfortuante thing is that I am leaving town tommorow for the country to get 1/2 a cow, so I'll be offline after ONE more day. Talk about bad timing! What are you going to do, I have a family to feed delicious beef to......
Oh By the Way: Efate fell, which would be a major event in any other report, but not in this one.....
- Attachments
-
- 120BroadwayLobby.jpg (165.55 KiB) Viewed 209 times
RE: There will be Blood!
Bad Timing!: The unfortuante thing is that I am leaving town tommorow for the country to get 1/2 a cow, so I'll be offline after ONE more day. Talk about bad timing! What are you going to do, I have a family to feed delicious beef to......
Damn it HOW DARE YOU ?!
[;)]
RE: There will be Blood!
I want to see this NOW ! [:D]
RE: There will be Blood!
WOW Q-Ball!
Good luck, I can´t wait to see the outcome of this battle.
Did you have good intel on the IJN TF compositions? Do you still have those Spitfires at Ambon? They might come in handy...
Good luck, I can´t wait to see the outcome of this battle.
Did you have good intel on the IJN TF compositions? Do you still have those Spitfires at Ambon? They might come in handy...
Battle of Ambon
Combat Report, Jan 11, 1943
I promised blood, and Cuttlefish and I delivered! The result is mixed; I lost alot of ships, he lost alot of planes, and I think I may have successfully defended Ambon.
Night Action: First, there was a significant night action at Ambon. An Allied TF built around Prince of Wales, 3 CA, and several DDs, engaged a Japanese TF consisting of Fuso, 2 CA, and a coulpe CL and some DDs. The RN overall acquitied itself well; CA Hawkins and 2 USN DDs were sunk, and a Japanese DD also sank; but Fuso was really pounded (heavy fires, heavy damage), as well as Suzuya, and my surviving ships suffered only minor damage. I don't think Fuso will sink, but safe to say we won't be seeing her for a bit.
My PT TF successfully drove off the transports, so very little was accomplished at night for Cuttlefish in terms of unloading.
Day Action: Of course, my CVs only went 8 hexes, so didn't end up where I wanted them to! The Day results overall were not too terrible though, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise.
The USN CV force ended up out of range and out of the battle, other than contributing some CAP to other ships. My support TF though, consisting of Hermes and Copahee, WAS in range. Kido Butai launched numerous strikes; Copahee ate two torps on the first strike and sank like a stone, but Hermes absorbed 4 separate strikes, taking punishment like a champ before finally succumbing. I hate losing these ships, but Cuttlefish lost over 100 aircraft attacking them, which could be fatal to the Ambon invasion.
Another Japanese air attack sank 3 transports unloading at Lautem. All my planes at Lautem attacked, and although over 50 strike aircraft got through the CAP, not a single hit was scored on KB. We did put two bombs on an already heavily damaged Suzuya; intel reports it sunk, but I am not sure about that. We lost 60 planes attacking KB, but most are Marine and Aussie planes that are fairly expendable.
Next Steps: I don't know what happened to the troops he landed; did he pick them back up? Either way, there is noone at Ambon now. This, coupled with the air losses, makes me think he will withdraw. If he doesn't I have more forces in-store for tommorow.
I couldn't get them there last night due to speed constraints, but 7 BBs will be in the Ambon hex tonight. If any IJN ships are there, we will have a nice battle! I have also moved the USN CVs into position to strike the anchorage or KB, whatever is there. At this point I would like a battle with KB, since he has lost over 150 planes in two days, and the remaining ones must have damage and morale problems. The last couple attacks yesterday faced a CAP of only 24 Zeros, if that's what I see tommorow it will go well for the US Navy. But I expect him to withdraw.
Overall, I think we successfully defended Ambon; we paid 2 small CV for that (plus an old CA), and in return took an IJN BB off the board for several months. Tactically, I think the Japanese won this round, but strategically, we did; the counterinvasion is stopped, and we can go on with our advance.
Efate: Cuttlefish did hit a transport TF at Efate with 2 Kongo-class BBs, plus YAMATO. The result was predictable: I lost 10 ships, including 4 APs (ouch). Not a scratch in return. That hurt a bit.
I promised blood, and Cuttlefish and I delivered! The result is mixed; I lost alot of ships, he lost alot of planes, and I think I may have successfully defended Ambon.
Night Action: First, there was a significant night action at Ambon. An Allied TF built around Prince of Wales, 3 CA, and several DDs, engaged a Japanese TF consisting of Fuso, 2 CA, and a coulpe CL and some DDs. The RN overall acquitied itself well; CA Hawkins and 2 USN DDs were sunk, and a Japanese DD also sank; but Fuso was really pounded (heavy fires, heavy damage), as well as Suzuya, and my surviving ships suffered only minor damage. I don't think Fuso will sink, but safe to say we won't be seeing her for a bit.
My PT TF successfully drove off the transports, so very little was accomplished at night for Cuttlefish in terms of unloading.
Day Action: Of course, my CVs only went 8 hexes, so didn't end up where I wanted them to! The Day results overall were not too terrible though, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise.
The USN CV force ended up out of range and out of the battle, other than contributing some CAP to other ships. My support TF though, consisting of Hermes and Copahee, WAS in range. Kido Butai launched numerous strikes; Copahee ate two torps on the first strike and sank like a stone, but Hermes absorbed 4 separate strikes, taking punishment like a champ before finally succumbing. I hate losing these ships, but Cuttlefish lost over 100 aircraft attacking them, which could be fatal to the Ambon invasion.
Another Japanese air attack sank 3 transports unloading at Lautem. All my planes at Lautem attacked, and although over 50 strike aircraft got through the CAP, not a single hit was scored on KB. We did put two bombs on an already heavily damaged Suzuya; intel reports it sunk, but I am not sure about that. We lost 60 planes attacking KB, but most are Marine and Aussie planes that are fairly expendable.
Next Steps: I don't know what happened to the troops he landed; did he pick them back up? Either way, there is noone at Ambon now. This, coupled with the air losses, makes me think he will withdraw. If he doesn't I have more forces in-store for tommorow.
I couldn't get them there last night due to speed constraints, but 7 BBs will be in the Ambon hex tonight. If any IJN ships are there, we will have a nice battle! I have also moved the USN CVs into position to strike the anchorage or KB, whatever is there. At this point I would like a battle with KB, since he has lost over 150 planes in two days, and the remaining ones must have damage and morale problems. The last couple attacks yesterday faced a CAP of only 24 Zeros, if that's what I see tommorow it will go well for the US Navy. But I expect him to withdraw.
Overall, I think we successfully defended Ambon; we paid 2 small CV for that (plus an old CA), and in return took an IJN BB off the board for several months. Tactically, I think the Japanese won this round, but strategically, we did; the counterinvasion is stopped, and we can go on with our advance.
Efate: Cuttlefish did hit a transport TF at Efate with 2 Kongo-class BBs, plus YAMATO. The result was predictable: I lost 10 ships, including 4 APs (ouch). Not a scratch in return. That hurt a bit.
- Attachments
-
- aaa.jpg (156.2 KiB) Viewed 209 times
RE: Victory Disease
Cuttlefish knows I need to split soon to get my carload of beef, so he ran the turn I just sent. I won't get it back until Sunday, but he did let me know what happened from a combat standpoint, and apparently it was a disaster for Japan.
He ordered his forces to withdraw. During the night, the PT Boat TF I have lurking around Ambon got mixed up with his Carriers; one CV TF had a collision, and basically didn't get moving enough because of the PT boat dance. As a result, it was obliterated during the day. Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu, and Soryu were sunk. No word on our losses, but I guess we didn't lose any ships.
I would hate for that type of defeat to happen because of a borked routine, or maybe this is just the fortunes of war, so we will sort this out. If that stands, certainly the game really just went south for the Empire; I don't know how you can recover from a loss like that, and with new CVs coming on-line shortly, it will just get super ugly fast for Japan.
He ordered his forces to withdraw. During the night, the PT Boat TF I have lurking around Ambon got mixed up with his Carriers; one CV TF had a collision, and basically didn't get moving enough because of the PT boat dance. As a result, it was obliterated during the day. Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu, and Soryu were sunk. No word on our losses, but I guess we didn't lose any ships.
I would hate for that type of defeat to happen because of a borked routine, or maybe this is just the fortunes of war, so we will sort this out. If that stands, certainly the game really just went south for the Empire; I don't know how you can recover from a loss like that, and with new CVs coming on-line shortly, it will just get super ugly fast for Japan.
RE: Victory Disease
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Cuttlefish knows I need to split soon to get my carload of beef, so he ran the turn I just sent. I won't get it back until Sunday, but he did let me know what happened from a combat standpoint, and apparently it was a disaster for Japan.
He ordered his forces to withdraw. During the night, the PT Boat TF I have lurking around Ambon got mixed up with his Carriers; one CV TF had a collision, and basically didn't get moving enough because of the PT boat dance. As a result, it was obliterated during the day. Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu, and Soryu were sunk. No word on our losses, but I guess we didn't lose any ships.
I would hate for that type of defeat to happen because of a borked routine, or maybe this is just the fortunes of war, so we will sort this out. If that stands, certainly the game really just went south for the Empire; I don't know how you can recover from a loss like that, and with new CVs coming on-line shortly, it will just get super ugly fast for Japan.
Just on the surface it doesn't really sound borked. At Midway a submarine sighting caused two CA's to collide.
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: Victory Disease
Cuttlefish gave me more detail. That CV TF ran into my PTs during the night off Namlea and withdrew....back to where they started, south of Ambon. Daybreak found them there, where the USN CVs destroyed them. All other IJN CVs were well away by then. That's what happened.
Cuttlefish is a good sport and would absolutely play through anyway, but is that fair? Or fortunes of war?
You can debate while I am on my Beef Run!
Cuttlefish is a good sport and would absolutely play through anyway, but is that fair? Or fortunes of war?
You can debate while I am on my Beef Run!
-
Capt. Harlock
- Posts: 5379
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
RE: Victory Disease
Cuttlefish is a good sport and would absolutely play through anyway, but is that fair? Or fortunes of war?
You can debate while I am on my Beef Run!
It sounds quite fair to me. The PT's messed up in not attacking the transports, it seems right that they should contribute something. And we all know that Midway's results were basically due to mis-timed attacks caused largely by navigation problems with the SBD's.
But it does seem a shame that the game is now much less interesting. To quote Lincoln (Happy Birthday, BTW) "The result is not doubtful."
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?
--Victor Hugo
--Victor Hugo
RE: Victory Disease
Tough call. I think this one's right on the line between "borked" and "them's the breaks". Probably all of us have read at least a little about "friction" in warfare, and it's not too hard to imagine a lookout's contact report leading the TF commanders to believe that they had run into a heavy surface combat TF. At the same time, it's a shame to see such a finely balanced contest take such a sharp turn on a fluke.
Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.
RE: Victory Disease
Well assuming it was the full KB (6 CV) and they launched strikes against your CVs then I think its a fair outcome. However if your LBA was involved due to the retreat routine error then perhaps you need to consider a re-do.
One things for sure, if the outcome was fair then its game over for the Japs....
One things for sure, if the outcome was fair then its game over for the Japs....
-
Canoerebel
- Posts: 21099
- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: Victory Disease
I think it's an awful break but absolutely fair. Complicated plans in tight waters when powerful combatants are juking and looking for an opening are just the kind of thing that lead to disaster for one side or other. Some little thing goes awry (a single search plane is down for maintenance and just happened to have the very sector where the American carriers were located) that has disastrous consequences.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Victory Disease
ORIGINAL: Miller
Well assuming it was the full KB (6 CV) and they launched strikes against your CVs then I think its a fair outcome. However if your LBA was involved due to the retreat routine error then perhaps you need to consider a re-do.
One things for sure, if the outcome was fair then its game over for the Japs....
I'm curious why LBA involvement would make a difference?
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
-
Chickenboy
- Posts: 24646
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: Victory Disease
Four fleet IJN carriers sunk in one engagement due to some crummy luck? That's so unrealistic! [:'(]ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Cuttlefish knows I need to split soon to get my carload of beef, so he ran the turn I just sent. I won't get it back until Sunday, but he did let me know what happened from a combat standpoint, and apparently it was a disaster for Japan.
He ordered his forces to withdraw. During the night, the PT Boat TF I have lurking around Ambon got mixed up with his Carriers; one CV TF had a collision, and basically didn't get moving enough because of the PT boat dance. As a result, it was obliterated during the day. Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu, and Soryu were sunk. No word on our losses, but I guess we didn't lose any ships.
I would hate for that type of defeat to happen because of a borked routine, or maybe this is just the fortunes of war, so we will sort this out. If that stands, certainly the game really just went south for the Empire; I don't know how you can recover from a loss like that, and with new CVs coming on-line shortly, it will just get super ugly fast for Japan.
-
Chickenboy
- Posts: 24646
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: Victory Disease
+1ORIGINAL: Zacktar
Tough call. I think this one's right on the line between "borked" and "them's the breaks". Probably all of us have read at least a little about "friction" in warfare, and it's not too hard to imagine a lookout's contact report leading the TF commanders to believe that they had run into a heavy surface combat TF. At the same time, it's a shame to see such a finely balanced contest take such a sharp turn on a fluke.
Looking at the of the conflict zone you displayed earlier, I thought his choice for placement of his CVs south of Ambon was risky. He has to move 5 hexes to get out of the cauldron back towards the Celebes.
He harvested the benefits of this placement two turns ago by some long-distance strike against Hermes et. al., now he gets the dirty end of the stick. He could have chosen a safer placement to minimize these unforseen catastrophes, but he didn't.
Brutal, but that's war.