Space Opera - Test Games

[GrumpyMel]

Some thoughts on the suggestions....

- I would have loved to have put in a supply system. I just don't think the regular AT engine could handle it very well given what I've had to do with the scenerio to make the space/ground thing work. That's why I didn't even bother trying with it.

- Logicaly, controling space would make the ground war pretty much superflous...as you would be able to simply bombard any hostile ground units into dust with your fleet from orbit before landing. That seemed rather boring/one dimensional to me...so I specificaly designed with the intention of avoiding that. I wanted the ground war to mean something...with space still being very important. That's why I came up with the "No Atomics" rule....essentialy the Houses are fighting a somewhat limited war...where they can't afford the political ramifications of mass bombardments of the planets they hope to rule.

So basicaly, I decided not to allow Space Fleets to DIRECTLY influence the fight on a planets surface. They could INDIRECTLY effect it by preventing reinforcements from entering the fray. However, I did want SOME limited ground support role for having a Navy in system. That's where Space Fighters/Bombers were supposed to come in. The design flaw that I have (IMO) in the version that we are playing is that there is a disincentive to build/risk many of them in a ground since they use the same critical resource - Isotopes - that players need for Spaceships. Thus loosing a bunch of fighters/bombers to SAM batteries is a really big deal for a player... bigger probably then it aught to be.

What I did in the updated version was changed the resource that these units require to Minerals (the same one that mechanized ground units use) which I hope will fix the dynamic... As loosing fighters/bombers in that case, while still not fun... shouldn't be as painful a blow as loosing something that takes Isotopes to replace.

I'm hoping this helps address the air/fleet support issues. If not, I may look at putting in some sort of air unit specificaly designed for doing bombardments. Maybe a cruise missle type thing or a specialized bomber. I want to be carefull not to tip things too far the other direction though...otherwise the ground war will become irrelevant.

The other problem with allowing long bombardment ranges is that there is no "terrain type" cost for bombardments....so allowing ships to bombard from orbit also means allowing ships to bombard other space units across Deep Space hexes or JumpGates....which should not be happening.

Naval Units - I agree with this. Although I did give Warships some bombardment capabilty (I think about the same as AT cruisers)... wet water navies could definately use some work in the scenerio. I didn't spend alot of design time on them. They probably are way too expensive given their limitations. I'll go back and take a look at the numbers on them again... they can probably use a bit of a speed boast...maybe a couple additional SFT's...and some cost tweaking. Will try to get that in an updated version over the next few days.

- Artillery has pretty much the same stats as vanilla AT except for the range. I felt given the scale, a 1 hex range made more sense. (IMO) Multi-hex ranges can really make artillery over-powered in many scenerio's as well (not that it isn't in reality though). So I'm kinda leaning at keeping it at one. I could consider putting in some weaker version of artillery with longer range though....maybe some sort of rocket/missle artillery. Mobility for guns shouldn't be bad if you provide horses as transport... that's what I see most people do with it in vanilla AT.

- Given the scale of the scenerio...I did realize that it COULD take forever to play to conclusion. That's why one of the very first updates I did was to add Victory Conditions and a Time Limit (Optional of course...you CAN keep playing past the time limit if you choose). Under that revision the game lasts 5 years (or 60 turns) and your score at the end is determined by the number and size of the cities you control (basicaly Production Points). So in order to win....you don't need to destroy the other players... you just need to make sure that you capture and hold onto more cities then everyone else before the timer runs out. In that way...it almost disincentivizes players from hunkering down and doing the turtle/attrition thing...since you won't get taken out...but you can't win by doing that. Again the rationale behind the scenerio is that the Houses are fighting more of a limited war with each other...not neccesarly to the death...but until one achieves enough dominance to be recognized as Emperor. It's my hope that this makes a little bit of the....I know I've got zero chance to win but it'll take forever to finally destroy me...dynamic that makes the end part of some other "total war" type scenerio's a little tiresome to play out. With this sort of victory conditions....even if you know you won't win....how well you hold out can help determine who actualy does. I'm not sure whether 60 turns is too long, too short or whatever...but it seemed like a nice arbitrary number to pick. I display the score in a report each turn anyway...so players could always agree to play to a different number of turns.

In short...I think some of the updates I've already made in new versions will help address many of the issues that have been brought up.

The two things I'll try adding to the next update will be:

- A revisit of Wet Water navies to make them more cost effective given their limitations.

- As an expirement, I'll try adding a space-to-ground missle type SFT...buildable only at starbases...and too heavy to transport out of system. It can be very resistant to AA fire but I'll make it destructable upon use and fairly cost ineffective for the playload....as I don't want players building hundreds of these things and simply dominating ground war with them. I'll make it use Minerals though...so as to not gum-up Starship production overmuch. That should add a little punch to controling space in a system...without overpowering the ground war element.

[GrumpyMel]

Oh and I'm perfectly happy to restart with an updated version....keep playing this one.... do both or neither... whatever you guys decide. I'm just happy to have gotten play testers for the scenerio...and that people are getting some fun out of it [:D]

Just let me know what you guys decide you want to do...and I'll go along with it.

If you want to go with a new version...It shouldn't take more then a couple days to put in the changes that Lunaticus's suggestions brought up (the Wet Water Navy tweaks...and the space to ground missle experiment)

[GrumpyMel]

Just uploaded a new version with some of the tweaks I talked about. See the Mod's section for details.

[Casus_Belli]

It's a real shame about supply, it would add a whole new dynamic to the game. I have certainly been enjoying this game, although it does move slowly. I think the ground/space balance is well done - it seems like the ground war does make a difference, especially when you think about resources, while what happens in space also has a big effect. I liked the space missiles, but they did not have any effect whatever when I used them. Maybe they could be more expensive but also deadlier. This would mean space defences for planets would be effective if well-deployed. You wouldn't necessarily need a deep-space navy for defence.
Good ground artillery - level 2 or 3 - should have a two-hex range, at least.
I think you are right about the situations being a function of the way we played, rather than the scenario, and the situation can change dramatically, if some threshhold is reached, or a blockade is broken, say.
I would give units faster movement, or make them easier to upgrade, and then give them faster movement. I like the tech-tree in general. Capital ships take an awful long time to build, which is ok, but maybe three turns, rather than four at full production, for a cruiser, would be better.
I did have some other ideas, but they've flown out of my head now that I've tried to write about them.
So far GrumpyMel (who seems like a mild-mannered sort of chap), Lunaticus (who comes across eminently sane) and Casus Belli (a peace-lover if ever there was one) agree we could restart. How about it Sapper32?

[sapper32]

Im up for restarting im enjoying this game but started realy slowly not quite knowing how to do some things i think i will have to be quicker off the mark this time and build the correct units to start with.
Will keep my eyes on this thread and see what is decided by everyone.

Regards Ian

[GrumpyMel]

Well...that would leave Bombur....any thoughts Bombur, would you be up for a restart with the new version?

[Lunaticus_matrixforum]

Thanks GrumpyMel for having a look at the suggestions I had. As I said am enjoying the game as it is but if ground combat becomes a bit more dynamic I think I would enjoy it even more.
One other suggestion I do have when we restart is to switch around the noble houses. I would very much like to see another part of the galaxy next time. So how about a random reshuffling of houses?

[Casus_Belli]

So we're going again?

[GrumpyMel]

Well I sent turn 37 along on the 9th. Waiting to hear from Bombur if he's interested in a restart. If he's not we we would need to find an additional player for a new game....though if neccesary we could try with 4 and just leave one of the Houses inactive.

[sapper32]

Hi all ive got turn 37 sat in my inbox are we continuing this game?? dont want to play it if i dont need to.

Regards Ian

[Bombur]

I agree with a restart

[sapper32]

Thats agreed then i wont play the turn and await Grumpymel's lead on sides and such forth

[GrumpyMel]

Ok, so it sounds like everyones up for a restart. Make sure you all have the latest version of the scenerio downloaded from the site, as there are some graphics added to it as well. We can figure out sides and get started. I know Lunaticus mentioned he wanted to try playing a different House. So Lunaticus or any other players just post the House you want to play (now that you have an idea what the positions are like). I'll take whatever is left over...and then we can start.

Should be lots of good additions in this version.

[Bombur]

I can take any House

[Lunaticus_matrixforum]

I am also flexible and would not mind a random redraw of houses (Random = Somebody rolls a die).
My hope is that I then get to see some different area of the galaxy. Alternatively we can roll 1 die and move all players that many slots so we all move houses.
 

[Casus_Belli]

I wouldn't mind taking DeCastillo again, but I'm also happy to go with a redraw if that's the decision.

[GrumpyMel]

Casus,

If you prefer DeCastillo to random....then take them. Might as well play something you have a preference for. If Sapper has a preference, he can pick too. There are plenty of Houses for the rest of us to mix up positions, if that's desired.

Once Sapper picks (if he has a preference).... we'll figure out what Lunaticus, Bombur & I take from whats left.... should be easy enough to make sure Lunaticus doesn't get stuck with Romanov again....if he wants a different position (either Drako or Sian-Chi should give him a chance to see some new planets....or Cadwall for that matter.)

[Casus_Belli]

It all sounds fine to me.

[sapper32]

I will go for a random choice please gents

[GrumpyMel]

Ok,

So it sounds like everyone besides Casus wants random. So when I get home tonight...I'll roll a die and see what positions each of the rest of us end up with.... then whoever ends up with Cadwall can start off the game.