AV Type ships. Bug or WAD?

[Charbroiled]

I'm playing allies in a PBEM.

I moved a Catalina unit to a base (port 1(0), airfield 0(2)) to set up a forward seaplane base. I needed "eyes" right away, and knowing that my AVs will be there in a couple of days, I move the planes to the base before the AVs arrived. As expected, my planes started becoming damaged. When the AVs arrived they repaired them to full strength....without disbanding the TF.

After I installed the newest patch, I started noticing my planes becoming damaged again. When I looked at the base screen, I saw that the aviation support of the AVs were not being applied. After some testing (at this base and at others), I noticed that the TF with the AVs had to be disbanded before the aviation support provided by the AVs would be considered.

Is this a bug or WAD?

[USSAmerica]

Charbroiled, is this the new Beta Patch or Patch 2 with one of it's hot fixes?

[Charbroiled]

This is the new beta patch.

[USSAmerica]

I can confirm this with the 1.101b beta patch.  On the morning of Dec. 8, 1941, I have "+48" AV support at Pearl.  3 AV's in port.  I put AV Tangier into a TF, leaving it docked, and the base's Av support dropped to "+24".  Disbanded her back into port, and the AV goes back to "+48". 

The question is, "WAD or not?"

[michaelm75au]

1.      Gameplay Change:[/b] Allow Seaplane tenders with organic air groups to fly day patrols even if disbanded in a port 1-3.  The port restriction is not in affect for the AI.

[edit] actually this does not apply to AV support.

[witpqs]

I just did a test to be sure, and you can disband a TF into a dot-base, so this might not affect things much.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

I'm playing allies in a PBEM.

I moved a Catalina unit to a base (port 1(0), airfield 0(2)) to set up a forward seaplane base. I needed "eyes" right away, and knowing that my AVs will be there in a couple of days, I move the planes to the base before the AVs arrived. As expected, my planes started becoming damaged. When the AVs arrived they repaired them to full strength....without disbanding the TF.

After I installed the newest patch, I started noticing my planes becoming damaged again. When I looked at the base screen, I saw that the aviation support of the AVs were not being applied. After some testing (at this base and at others), I noticed that the TF with the AVs had to be disbanded before the aviation support provided by the AVs would be considered.

Is this a bug or WAD?

Do you have a save to review?
----
On base screen, AV support should include all seaplane tender type (CS AV AVD AVP) ships (in port or a TF in same hex as port).
As long as the ship has no fire or float damage and system damage is less than 50.

To repair planes also requires supplies to be present - at the base or on the tender itself. I think that at one stage, tenders were repairing planes without regard to having any supplies available. The supplies aren't consumed from the tender, though.

[Charbroiled]

I won't be able to send a save until tomorrow, but I think this is an issue that can be easily duplicated (see USS America's post).

I have supplies at the base.....about 2000. Everything was working before the Beta patch...planes were repairing and flying normally.

I am able to disband the AVs into the port and planes are now repairing, so it really isn't that big of an issue to me. However, I was use to leaving the AVs in a TF at forward seaplane bases and it took me by surprise when the planes started becoming damaged quickly. Just wondered if this was an intentional change or not.

As I mentioned in my first post, once I saw what was happening, I checked it out at other bases where I had AVs. If the ships were disbanded in port, the AV value would show up on the base screen (+24, etc). If the AVs are in a TF (docked or not), the AV would NOT show up on the base screen. I even tried putting the AVs into different TF type (transport, support, air replenish, etc.)

And given the fact that my seaplanes at the base in question stopped repairing, I would make the guess that it is not a case of the AV support working, but not showing on the base screen.

[Al Boone]

Every since the latest Beta I am getting the same problem. In the TTMW scenario I have PBY squadrons at 3 different bases which are quickly putting most of their aircraft into maint'd.. All bases have adequate AVD and supply support with no damage, overstack deficiencies, AV support or other obvious effects. This has only occurred after the most recent patch. Previously, I used adequate rest numbers to maintain nearly full squadron quantities.

The problem seems to indicate that the PBY squadrons are getting no AV support of any kind in spite of presence of all necessary requirements.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I just did a test to be sure, and you can disband a TF into a dot-base, so this might not affect things much.

The more I'm thinking about this issue, the more I realize that this could be have a substanial affect...not a game breaker, of course, but substantial.

IIRC, if the ships are disbanded in port, only 1/2 of their AA will be used against an air attack. So essentially this requirement (whether intentional or not) just reduced the AA protection for ships in an area where AA protection may be critical. But, I guess one could always disband only the AV into the port, but not the escorting ships.

[Al Boone]

Refer to my post above -

My AVD type support ships have all been disbanded into the 3 different ports, so not being in a TF is not causing the apparent lack of AV support for the PBY squadrons. It is as if they are stationed at a dot base with no support. This is a game-breaker for me, since I will soon lose my navy's eyes. I am suspending play until there is a possible fix.

[michaelm75au]

Findings:
1. The Seaplane support on base screen ONLY counts disbanded ships in port. This hasn't changed.
2. Only tenders in a base support seaplanes for repairs.

Issue:
Tenders in a TF are not being counted for support purposes if in the same hex as the seaplanes at a base.

(a) The logic behind counting the tender support was changed sometime back to speed up the turn. It originally looked through ALL ships checking their location to see if it was in the hex where the group was.
Now it only looks at the ships in the BASE in the hex. This is why only disbanded ships are being counted.
(b) In the last patch, tenders were not being counted for seaplane support. The seaplane support was determined from the flawed logic of (a) above.

Fix:
As well as any ships in port at the base, any friendly seaplane tender in a TF in the SAME hex as the base will count towards the tally.

-------------------
Thinking about it, the current problem was probably introduced by me in the initial patch 03 (Organic seaplane operating from tender).
Prior to the patch, seaplane tenders were not properly supporting seaplanes - they helped all planes at the base.
Plus if the tenders had supplies, they should have been using them to keep the seaplanes active as supply is still a factor in repairs.
The patch initially fixed the support-supply problem but must have introduced the base/TF seaplane support. Counting seaplane support must have been handled differently to how it was handled for bases. By making them use a common rule, I choose the 'flawed' rule to follow.

A tender can still repair seaplanes without supply being present, but much more slowly. And no more planes are repaired than the actual seaplane support provided by the tender. Thus a tender with 6 seaplane AV can only repair at most (and if lucky), roughly 6 planes per turn without having supplies available (in tender or at base).

[Al Boone]

Hi Michaelm,

Prior to patch 3 Beta, my PBY squadrons were repairing aircraft at Bases with adequate supply and DISBANDED AVD ships which had AV support at least equal to the PBY aircraft numbers. This seemed to change with patch 3 Beta. Quickly increasing numbers of PBYs are accumulating in maintenance to the point that all will be in maintenance. From your reply above, I infer that you only think the problem is due to uncounted AV Support TFs in Bases. If so, I think that disbanded AV ships are also not servicing seaplanes in Bases, even Bases with adequate supplies.

I have always assumed that excess AV ship aircraft support did not help general non-seaplane maintenance at a Base. I assume this is still true?

You seem to imply that supply also needs to be left at a Dot Base with an AV Tender to assure adequate Seaplane operational support, since AVDs have no inherent supply cargo capability? Alternatively, are you saying that an AV Tender will only support numbers of Seaplanes up to it's AV support capability without supply and will support even more Seaplanes with adequate Base supply even at a Dot Base?

[Gary D]

Michalem;
 
I have run into another related AV issue where damaged AVs in port prevent the "aircraft fatigue" from ever decreasing.  Pilot fatigue will go to zero as normal if you have the squadron stood down but the aircraft fatigue, even at large bases like PH with plenty of other aviation support, refuses to budge.  After a week or so all the PBYs at PH are down for maintenance even while stood down.  It appears normal aviation support is not being counted because of the damaged AV ship disbanded in the harbor??
 
Thank you for your effort.
 
 

[michaelm75au]

Aircraft fatigue is really only removed with plane is down for Maintenance.
However a few points can be removed while the plane is being repaired - assumes some routine maintenance is done while they are patching up holes, fixing weapons, etc.

If there is excess base AV to cater for the seaplanes at the base, then the seaplane tender support is no used. Just as if the tenders were not even present.
The tenders are really acting as mobile seaplane bases.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Al Boone

Hi Michaelm,

Prior to patch 3 Beta, my PBY squadrons were repairing aircraft at Bases with adequate supply and DISBANDED AVD ships which had AV support at least equal to the PBY aircraft numbers. This seemed to change with patch 3 Beta. Quickly increasing numbers of PBYs are accumulating in maintenance to the point that all will be in maintenance. From your reply above, I infer that you only think the problem is due to uncounted AV Support TFs in Bases. If so, I think that disbanded AV ships are also not servicing seaplanes in Bases, even Bases with adequate supplies.

I have always assumed that excess AV ship aircraft support did not help general non-seaplane maintenance at a Base. I assume this is still true?

You seem to imply that supply also needs to be left at a Dot Base with an AV Tender to assure adequate Seaplane operational support, since AVDs have no inherent supply cargo capability? Alternatively, are you saying that an AV Tender will only support numbers of Seaplanes up to it's AV support capability without supply and will support even more Seaplanes with adequate Base supply even at a Dot Base?

Comparing code from 1097 and beta patch03:
1. The change from scanning all ships to just scanning those in the base was introduced in patch03. I thought it was earlier. This would mean pre-beta, any AV type would count. Post-beta, only disbanded AV type would count. Next beta patch will scan both the ship in port (disbanded) AND any AV type in a friendly TF in the same hex. Net affect being the same as pre-beta.
2. If not supported solely from a base, supply wasn't a consideration for seaplanes in pre-beta although it should have been. It was subtracting supply from a non-existent source. Post-beta once the number of repairs exceeds the amount of seaplane tender support in the hex, supply is required from the base to ready the plane. Next beta patch, after the seaplane tender support is exceeded, the supply will come from (a) a tender first and then (b) the base in the hex.

Generally, seaplane support should be at least the amount of seaplanes at the base. Seaplane support can try to repair at least that many planes without consuming supply. Supply on the tender or at the base improves the chances of repair/readying seaplanes in the base.

[Gary D]

Michaelm;

I do not think I did a very good job articulating the issue I am seeing so I took a new December 8th scenario using patch 3 and went through it again.

On December 8th as the allies in PH you have 3 AV type ships including the damaged AV Curtis. You also have many squadrons of mauled PBYs.

In the attached save I disbanded many squadrons of PBYs from around the map to give us some replacements to demonstrate with. I also disbanded a lot of other squadrons at PH to take the total value of aviation support out of the equation.

From the extra PBYs we have in the pool now that we disbanded other squadrons, I added replacements to the PBY squadrons at PH and like usual they are all in a damaged or unready state.

Now run a few turns. As long as the damaged AV Curtis sits in PH none of the unready PBYs will move up to a ready state.

Put the damaged AV Curtis in a support TF and move her next door to Molokai and voila, all the PBYs at PH start to repair normally.

I hope this is clearer and that it highlights the issue or that you can tell me what I am doing wrong! [:)]

All the best

[Al Boone]

Gary,
I would guess that you are getting regular Base AV help from PH once the Tender is removed. I think that Patch 3 Beta has removed Tender support of seaplane maintenance when Tenders are in the same Base as the seaplanes. I think that this is also negating Base support of the seaplanes. I do not think that the Tender's status as damaged, in a TF or disbanded is causing this. Removal of the Tender allows the Base AV support to aid the seaplane maintenance. I have the same situation as you in 3 Bases with seaplanes and undamaged Tenders in a disbanded state. My guess is that if I removed the Tenders, the Bases would start support maintenance of my seaplanes. I think that Michaelm has identfied most of the problem, but I am not sure if he realizes that it effects disbanded Tenders as well as those in a TF at a Base. I don't think that the Tender damage is a factor in this particular case.

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: Al Boone

Gary,
I would guess that you are getting regular Base AV help from PH once the Tender is removed. I think that Patch 3 Beta has removed Tender support of seaplane maintenance when Tenders are in the same Base as the seaplanes. I think that this is also negating Base support of the seaplanes. I do not think that the Tender's status as damaged, in a TF or disbanded is causing this. Removal of the Tender allows the Base AV support to aid the seaplane maintenance. I have the same situation as you in 3 Bases with seaplanes and undamaged Tenders in a disbanded state. My guess is that if I removed the Tenders, the Bases would start support maintenance of my seaplanes. I think that Michaelm has identfied most of the problem, but I am not sure if he realizes that it effects disbanded Tenders as well as those in a TF at a Base. I don't think that the Tender damage is a factor in this particular case.

I'm seeing the exact same thing in my beta-patched games. My seaplanes continue to go into maintenance without repairing, even with a base force present. But once they go into this mode they don't recover and start to repair even after the AVP/AVD/AV is moved away.

Something has gone topsy turvy.

[Gary D]

Al;

Thank you for your explanation. I am still am trying to wrap my brain around this one compared to what I am seeing. Looks like one of those things that some morning will finally hit me when I am standing in the shower or daydreaming on the drive to work. [:)]

In my save above there are 3 AVs disbanded and plenty of regular air support at PH on December 8th. Two AVs are healthy, and one damaged. The PBYs seem to get no support from any source as long as the damaged AV is disbanded in PH. I think I will try putting one of the healthy AVs in a TF and see if that works instead of shipping the Curtiss off to the leper colony on Molokai.

All the best!