War in the East Q&A

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: miller41

I have to say I am surprized by the number of people who say that the german player will give up if they don't win in 41-42. As a player of WITP and playing Japan, I already know they I am going to be holding on for dear life later in the war, the goal is to do better than what happened. Eastern front should be the same. I as the german player would be trying to hold off the red horde from destroying germany for as long as possible with the best tactics I can[:D]

I totally agree.[;)]

The whole fun of Eastern front games is to try and do better than our historical German counterparts. I would like to know if the timeline will be extended beyond April 1945 if the German forces are holding back the Russian hordes?

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Sorry, I hit the wrong key before I got my questions done:
First question:
Let's assume I - as the German player - conquer a main production center. Will all the factories there be destroyed forever ? Do I have to hold the city? I'm asking because I want to know if it's more about to take away from the Russians or to add "resources" to my production system and the possibility to increase my armaments pool (since enemy manpower and therefore squad production isn't possible in conquered territories).
Second question:
If a city with resource / factory center is conquered and reconquered. Do these center suffer from beeing probably damaged twice ?

Background: It's about strategy. If the Germans do not gain a significant advantage in 41 (as they did), should they focus on getting / destroying the Soviet capabilities to wage war in 42 ? If the WitE system allows for a boost of German production capabilities after getting the Ukraine and Donetz cities or even some oilfields (Maikop, Grozny) then Operation Blue would make some sense. If in contrary, resources, oilfields and the like would add nothing to the Germans production, than a "simple" search and destroy AND THEN RETIRE policy could be an option. You wouldn't have to hold a center.

Could somebody comment on that ? Thanks.  

It always benefits you to inflict as much damage on the other side's war economy as possible. The less resources a player has the fewer units/replacements he can create. Except for capturing Oil resources there isn't much advantage for the Axis player in holding Soviet cities containing other resources (Manpower & Railyards, nothing else can be captured) since every city you capture increases your garrison requirements but ultimately when the victory conditions are finally settled upon you can expect that enemy cities will be victory point objectives so you'll have to take and hold them whether you benefit from them or not (e.g. the rubble of Stalingrad was of no military value to Germany but Hitler wanted the city regardless).

Cities that are re-captured will return to providing their resources (Manpower, Railyards, Oil) but at an even further reduced level (damaged twice).

[elmo3]

Just to add to this, the Soviets can evacuate factories to the east for continued production.  They use rail their capacity for this and it takes time for the factories to ramp up for renewed production.

[Balou]

First, thanks for your answer, for now I'm getting really curious. Are there some figures or quantities of "oil" the Germans require so that their war plants or whatsoever can increase their output ? In other words, is the WitE production system ready ? As it has been said, I understand that it's War in the East and not Production in the East. But at least one would know what can be done - if it can be done - to help your war economy.

Second: what is a railyard good for in WitE ? And if it is good for something, are there railyards in every city (probably yes), and is size of the city/railyard a matter? Could have an impact on what city would become an interesting next target.

By the way: considering that you have to watch at least two very hot threads (this one and your AAR), I really appreciate how fast you feed the auditorium with your answers.

[elmo3]

As mentioned elsewhere Pavel is the production guru (along with being an expert in many other areas) so hopefully he will be able to make time to handle your questions at some point.  I "think" rail yards affect the amount of rail points you have for strategic type rail movement.  That would make sense to me although I don't see that mentioned in the manual yet.  Not all cities have rail yards although many do and their size varies based on historical data.

[ComradeP]

Cities that are re-captured will return to providing their resources (Manpower, Railyards, Oil) but at an even further reduced level (damaged twice).

Do those damaged resources ever repair?

As to railyards: I'm assuming that as the Axis need to convert rail tracks, they can't use captured Soviet gauge rail assets, not even in abstracted form?

[Balou]

Sincerely hope that Production Guru Pavel steps in soon.
Railyards: given the fact that the vast majority of supplies came to the frontline by train, I would assume that the Axis took every opportunity to benefit from even the remotest assets to keep the flow of supplies running. I don't know if supply by road transportation is of importance in WitE (no roads on the map), but historically transportation by rail was even more than the main mode of transportation. It had to fill the gap as soon as roads became impassable morasses in October/November and again in March/April.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Do those damaged resources ever repair?

As to railyards: I'm assuming that as the Axis need to convert rail tracks, they can't use captured Soviet gauge rail assets, not even in abstracted form?

You can't extend a railhead past the point of conversion with captured Soviet trains. However they "may" contribute abstractly to the total pool of Axis rail points. I just don't know the answer on that one.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: hart2412



The whole fun of Eastern front games is to try and do better than our historical German counterparts. I would like to know if the timeline will be extended beyond April 1945 if the German forces are holding back the Russian hordes?

The game is supposed to end in May, 1945 but I'm not sure a definite stop date has been implemented yet.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP



Do those damaged resources ever repair?

As to railyards: I'm assuming that as the Axis need to convert rail tracks, they can't use captured Soviet gauge rail assets, not even in abstracted form?

Manpower doesn't come back; I'm not sure about Oil and Railyards. The rules manual is still a WIP and many of these things remain undefined.

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: hart2412



The whole fun of Eastern front games is to try and do better than our historical German counterparts. I would like to know if the timeline will be extended beyond April 1945 if the German forces are holding back the Russian hordes?

The game is supposed to end in May, 1945 but I'm not sure a definite stop date has been implemented yet.

Ooops, just noticed that i typed April.[&:] Trying to change history again!

I am really hoping for an extended timeline, however this may have to be abstracted in some way to account for events on the Western front etc. Once we get into an extended timeline everything that happens with unit withdrawals etc become hypothetical.

[jaw]

I forgot to answer the second part of your question. The Axis player must convert Soviet gauge rail lines to European gauge to use them; they are of no benefit if the wrong gauge for that player.

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: jaw

I forgot to answer the second part of your question. The Axis player must convert Soviet gauge rail lines to European gauge to use them; they are of no benefit if the wrong gauge for that player.

I presume that the Soviet player will also have to re-convert back from European gauge when he re-captures territory?

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: hart2412

I presume that the Soviet player will also have to re-convert back from European gauge when he re-captures territory?

Yes, that is why they get rail units too.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Sincerely hope that Production Guru Pavel steps in soon....

Pavel is busier than the proverbial one legged man at the ass kicking contest. I know lots of people have questions and we try to answer as many as we can in the limited time we have for forum support. But don't count on Pavel being here on a regular basis.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: hart2412


I am really hoping for an extended timeline, however this may have to be abstracted in some way to account for events on the Western front etc. Once we get into an extended timeline everything that happens with unit withdrawals etc become hypothetical.

This is speculation on my part since I've never played that far into the 1941-1945 Campaign game and we do not yet have a late war campaign scenario but based having played some of the 1943 -1945 Campaign (Kursk) I seriously doubt that any game against a human Russian player (and perhaps even against the AI) would last to the historical end of the war.

The best chance for Axis victory is in 1941 or 1942. If the Soviet Union isn't critically damaged in that time frame, the initiative will almost certainly start to pass to the Russian player. Just as the Axis player uses historical hindsight to optimize his invasion of Russia, the Russian player will do the same thing in the later half of the War.

The bane of all single player war games is the ability to micro-manage operations to a degree impossible in the real world. This micro-management usually results in an efficiency of operations that exceeds history. I suspect the same thing will happen in WitE with most games ending well before May, 1945.

[Cavalry Corp]

ORIGINAL: hart2412

ORIGINAL: miller41

I have to say I am surprized by the number of people who say that the german player will give up if they don't win in 41-42. As a player of WITP and playing Japan, I already know they I am going to be holding on for dear life later in the war, the goal is to do better than what happened. Eastern front should be the same. I as the german player would be trying to hold off the red horde from destroying germany for as long as possible with the best tactics I can[:D]

I totally agree.[;)]

The whole fun of Eastern front games is to try and do better than our historical German counterparts. I would like to know if the timeline will be extended beyond April 1945 if the German forces are holding back the Russian hordes?

Yes 43-45 the best time - and if you do not do a Kursk you may be able to keep the Ruskies at bay for some time !!

Cav

[wiking62]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: hart2412


I am really hoping for an extended timeline, however this may have to be abstracted in some way to account for events on the Western front etc. Once we get into an extended timeline everything that happens with unit withdrawals etc become hypothetical.

This is speculation on my part since I've never played that far into the 1941-1945 Campaign game and we do not yet have a late war campaign scenario but based having played some of the 1943 -1945 Campaign (Kursk) I seriously doubt that any game against a human Russian player (and perhaps even against the AI) would last to the historical end of the war.

The best chance for Axis victory is in 1941 or 1942. If the Soviet Union isn't critically damaged in that time frame, the initiative will almost certainly start to pass to the Russian player. Just as the Axis player uses historical hindsight to optimize his invasion of Russia, the Russian player will do the same thing in the later half of the War.

The bane of all single player war games is the ability to micro-manage operations to a degree impossible in the real world. This micro-management usually results in an efficiency of operations that exceeds history. I suspect the same thing will happen in WitE with most games ending well before May, 1945.

I hope that any late war scenarios will include Operation Bagration, Korsun pocket, Kurland pocket and Operation Konrad.
[;)]

[Helpless]

I'm not quite guru as Lee called me, just been dealing with that recently. We still balancing the economy and the idea is to make it significant factor in the game

Are there some figures or quantities of "oil" the Germans require so that their war plants or whatsoever can increase their output ? In other words, is the WitE production system ready ? As it has been said, I understand that it's War in the East and not Production in the East. But at least one would know what can be done - if it can be done - to help your war economy.

Economy is quite complex to describe it in several sentences. Very briefly..

In WITE oil is not required to generate Heavy Industry (HI) points. HI is feed by resources and generating supplies at the end. Supply is then drives all further economy - used to "buy" vehicles, aircrafts, armament points, used by units (some of supply is converting into ammo)

Oil is used to generate Fuel. Fuel is also produced by converting resources into "synthetic fuel". Fuel is mainly used to drive all your motorized units and allow your aircrafts to fly.

Back to your question. Yes, German can capture resource and oil centers. Other factory types got damaged/destroyed. (Need to check if it is permanent). This eventually could lead to some higher output, but not much. Since the growth of HI is limited. Capturing enemy resources and oil has biggest impact in reducing enemy ability to produce enough supply/fuel and lowering all subsequent elements.

For example, very significant Soviet resource centers are located in the South (Ukraine). The significant amount of HI is located there as well. So for long term perspective it pays off to go South quickly not to the North.

Another example could be Caucasus where most of the oil/fuel sources are. Cutting them off can make tremendous impact on Soviet offensive abilities.

As mentioned all economy factors come into play in long term perspective. And we still balancing all the figures. Which is not that easy with all kind of short term problems alpha/beta state implies.

Here is the WITE prod chart I made some months ago. But guess it is not 100% correct anymore.. nor it's full. [:)]

[wiking62]

Hi Helpless,

The Russians have a lot of HI located in the South Ukraine - does the AI relocate this HI further East as the Germans advance?