Big ship, bigger war - Adventures of the Yamato - AAR vs Acepylut (A)

[Hortlund]

No, this will not be a cheap copy of the best AAR in the history of the witp/ae-forums. I just could not come up with a good name. Besides, Yamato also means Japan so there.

Since my opponent Acepylut has started an AAR, I thought Id do the same.


No acepilots in this thread please.

[Hortlund]

Initial thoughts

Malaya/upper NEI:
Im going for the Mersing gambit. All of the first-turn warp TFs will head to Mersing instead of Kota Bharu. I will not send any taskforces to the northern coast of Borneo yet. The Mersing invasion fleet will need all avaliable surface ships for protection, so I cannot land at Kuching or Singkawang at the same time. Instead the initial order of invasions will be Mersing - Miri - Kuching/Singkawang - Palembang

Lower NEI:
Nothing much at first. Initial landings will be at Menado and Tarakan, but they will not be dispatched until the CVL and CVE that starts off Peleliu can take up position to cover the landings. I will try to take the bases in the following order: Menado - Tarakan - Sorong - Ternate - Ambon - Kendari

Im moving an air HQ to to Babeldaob so I can base it at Menado as soon as that base falls. Then I can have Bettys with torpedos in the midle of the Celebes Sea, and that should put an end to any sort of naval defence in the lower NEI.

Phillipines:
Mindanao is a priority, I will put alot of forces here as soon as possible to remove the ability for the allies to base aircraft here.

Paras will land at Atimonan, Laoag and Vigan on day#1. I will use paras to take most of the empty bases south of Manilla. 2 divisions will land at Atimonan and then march three hexes north to Manilla, while the usual bunch lands at Vigan and gets to march down to Clark. I want to hit him from two directions to prevent him from massing troops.

Southern Pacific:
Not much initially. Eventually I will bring in 21st division from Shanghai to this area.

Burma:
15th Army will do its thing up here too.

China:
China is important, will put lots of effort into this theater. More on that later.

[Hortlund]

Opening moves... December 7th-10th 1941

Day 1
Pearl Harbor was a disaster. My aircraft barely hit anything at all. This is bad because it means I have to attack Pearl again. That usually costs alot of pilots and planes. KB is ordered to move a couple of hexes towards home, but stay within strike-range. For tomorrow, all Vals are set on naval attack (they are useless against the BBs anyway) and all Kates are set on port attack.

Force Z escaped. It appears ace sent the ships south instead of on their death-run towards Kota Bharu. That is really really bad since it forces me to be super-careful in the NEI region. Potentially I have to defend all my invasion fleets against a Force Z on steroids together with Boise and Houston.

The Jap airforce put alot of hurt on Clark, Alor Star, Georgetown, Kuantan and Kota Bharu. Zeros were LRCAP:ing Mersing and managed to protect the fleet at least somewhat. Still, an AK took a torpedo hit. I hate to loose one of those AKs. Still, it could have been alot worse. But I wonder what will happen tomorrow when the full fury of the commonwealth airforce will be thrown against Mersing.

Day 2
Nells and Bettys on port-strike attacking Manilla were greeted by no less than 63 P-40s in the skies. Ive never seen an allied player manage to get that many fighters in the air over Manilla on December 8th. Fortunately enough I had a Zero wing on sweep that arrived before the main strike. In the end we shot down P-40s and P-26s at about 2-1 ratio and no fighters broke through to the bombers.

Over Pearl, the second strike were greeted by 40-something P-40Bs and we lost heavily to the allied fighters. All in all about 15 Kates and 10 Zeros were lost over Pearl on this day. We managed to get through though and several BBs were reported as having heavy fires and heavy damage. I hope some will sink, but failing that, they will at least be out of the war for a year or two.

At Mersing Force Z made a surprise appearance. Fortunately my BBs drew the longer straw and managed to sink the Repulse for no damage. I doubt the Prince of Wales will return alone tomorrow, so the landing should be safe. The transport ships had already left the base. Most of them still with cargo aboard, but the troops were ashore and I dont want to linger around too long that close to Singapore.

In the skies above Mersing, allied bombers threw themselves on the small Zero CAP. No Buffalos were to be seen, and I shot down something like 10-15 bombers. I wonder where the Buffalos were...probably capping Force Z. I had stood down all my Nells and Bettys at Saigon since I dont want to see them throw themselves against some Buffalo-trap just offshore of Singapore. Seems it was the right call.

All in all, I think we had an excellent day. We shot down around 60-70 allied aircraft for the loss of 40 (20 of which were Zeros)

Day 3
Mopping up action around Manilla. We managed to catch alot of transports, others got away. No sign of Prince of Wales, no sign of Boise and Houston. I wonder where those last two are. My bet is that they are around Balikpapan right now and that he will use them to defend Kendari/Ambon. Troops went ashore at Menado, Miri and Davao. Some more small invasions here and there. Malayan penninsula is cut by my tanks, Singapore is now isolated, and alot of commonwealth forces were caught north of Johore Bharu. Tanks and infantry ordered to take Malacca, that will be the defensive line until Singapore falls.

[Hortlund]

December 11th

Malaya
Nothing much, some fighter action in the north as my Oscars take down 4 Buffalos for no loss. I had ordered the entire airforce to ground strike 8th Indian bde who are advancing north towards Pakhoi from Kota Bharu, but poor weather prevented most of the attacks. I have emergency-ordered a guards regiment from Saigon to move to Pakhoi as the only unit I have there right now is an airforce bn. They should arrive before the Indians do.

Borneo
The Tarakan invasion force are ordered to go ahead, they should land in a day or two. Boise and Houston appear at Miri. In a surface engagemnent, my cover force consisting of a CL and 5 DDs manage to put the Houston in sinking condition for no own loss. Amazingly poor performance by the Boise who was out of the fight for most of the time.

Lower NEI
The Menado invasion fails. For some reason I had only brought a nav guard with 20 av...which of cource is not enough by far. Im re-routing the Sorong invasion force to Menado instead. Two of my BBs arrive at Peleliu and they form up the core of the Ambon invasion force. An infantry regiment together with some SNLFs and engineers should be enough. This force will first take Ambon and then move on to Kendari right away. Im taking an air HQ with me to Ambon aswell (this air HQ orignially comes from Formosa, I sent it to Peleliu with the intention to base it at Manado after the base fell. Now when that invasion was delayed Ill use Ambon as my "torpedo-base" instead.

Phillipines
Davao fell together with Surigao. The Mindanao invasion is right on schedule. Two divisions arrive at Atimonan and should start unloading tomorrow. This is the southern pincer which will move directly to Manilla. 65th Bde arrives at San Fernando. The northern pincer will start moving towards Clark tomorrow.

Central Pacific
Wake falls. Yay.

[mike scholl 1]

"Over Pearl, the second strike were greeted by 40-something P-40Bs and we lost heavily to the allied fighters. All in all about 15 Kates and 10 Zeros were lost over Pearl on this day. We managed to get through though and several BBs were reported as having heavy fires and heavy damage. I hope some will sink, but failing that, they will at least be out of the war for a year or two."


Does anybody else find it odd that this is still fewer losses than those actually suffered by the Japanese Historically during the "suprise attack" on 12/07 when only 5 Allied fighters engaged the attackers? [&:]

[jeffs]

Well in my game...I got lose 5 BBs and about 7 IJN planes were lost..While it is unrealistic to expect exact historicals, a vague similarity to historicals would be nice.

Given how little carrier planes get hurt, I am surprsing more IJN players do not destroy as much as they can.

At least in WITP, it was pretty much guaranteed 25-33 planes would go down (I think 29 was the historic). And follow up attacks were the same.
That means the IJN must (as they should) really have to think about it.

If he coders can do something to make that first strike a bit more close to historics it would be helpful (especially if historic first turn one unhistorically also loses FARCE Z)

[Hortlund]

The sum total of my KB bomber losses so far:

Kates 38 (9 AA, 20 Flak, 9 ops)
Vals 26 (20 Flak, 6 ops)

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Well in my game...I got lose 5 BBs and about 7 IJN planes were lost..While it is unrealistic to expect exact historicals, a vague similarity to historicals would be nice.

Given how little carrier planes get hurt, I am surprsing more IJN players do not destroy as much as they can.

At least in WITP, it was pretty much guaranteed 25-33 planes would go down (I think 29 was the historic). And follow up attacks were the same.
That means the IJN must (as they should) really have to think about it.

If he coders can do something to make that first strike a bit more close to historics it would be helpful (especially if historic first turn one unhistorically also loses FARCE Z)

If we could get rid of die rolls and randomness, maybe we would have the game you are after. Course, it wouldn't be much of a game.

[ny59giants]

If I could truly micro-manage the Pearl strike, I would click on "ignore BBs" and focus on CA, CL, and DDs. These are what an Allied player will use to build up his CV TF. 

[Hortlund]

Or have the VALs focus on CLs, support ships and subs, while the Kates focus on the BBs...that would be sweet.
 
But as cap says...what would be the fun in that? Some dice rolls are neccessary

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"Over Pearl, the second strike were greeted by 40-something P-40Bs and we lost heavily to the allied fighters. All in all about 15 Kates and 10 Zeros were lost over Pearl on this day. We managed to get through though and several BBs were reported as having heavy fires and heavy damage. I hope some will sink, but failing that, they will at least be out of the war for a year or two."


Does anybody else find it odd that this is still fewer losses than those actually suffered by the Japanese Historically during the "suprise attack" on 12/07 when only 5 Allied fighters engaged the attackers? [&:]

10 Zeros lost historically ??

I find it odder that their is no way the Japanese can get the 350 damaged or destroyed air frame damages historically despite most Japanese players sending a lot more to the airfields. I would love to lose 10 or 20 more Vals for those losses especially all but 3 PBYs.

Of the 402 American aircraft in Hawaii, 188 were destroyed and 159 damaged, 155 of them on the ground. Almost none were actually ready to take off to defend the base. Of 33 PBYs in Hawaii, 24 were destroyed, and six others damaged beyond repair. (The three on patrol returned undamaged.)

[Hortlund]

A note on logistics and ASW

Since I decided to attack Pearl Harbor instead of Manilla, it means the submarine menace will be severe, and it will start pretty much from the first day of war.

I have focused my convoy routes to converge on Shanghai and/or Okinawa before moving into Japan. All my convoys will have Shimonoseki as their unloadning port. The main convoy route is shown in green. It will follow that exact path because I want to have it traverse shallow water and bases. All the bases will be mined heavily, in fact the black circled areas are the only places I will mine on the entire map. 400 mines to defend Tarawa might be nice, but what exactly can a minefield accomplish there? One or two minehits on a DD or an AK? 400 Mines at Tsushima will prevent any allied sub to venture there, and a single mine hit will usually cripple or sink a sub.

My ASW forces will be organized into special taskforces consisting of 1 DD and 3 SCs. These will patrol the convoy line marked in green, and several dedicated TFs will patrol the ASW-focus areas highlighted on the map. Im expecting to have at least 15 such taskforces in the Shimonoseki-area.

In addition to this, there will be several dedicated ASW-wings based in the area.

This area will be the almost exclusive focus of all my ASW assets. The convoys themselves will have PB/DD escorts, but only in reasonable numbers. The big TK-convoy will be a floating ASW-fortress however, with at least one CS to provide air-asw cover.

Right now I have moved all my big TKs to Port Arthur to move the oil from there to Japan. All the small TKs are at Cam Rahn Bay where they will wait until the NEI is secure. The small TKs will move oil and fuel to one or two main hubs, where the big TKs will pick it up. The objective is that no big TK will ever be in deep water or more than one hex from shore. More on the extended convoy routes later.

[bklooste]

I like it , maybe put some more floats on Naval Search nearby it really helps and maybe more succefull against subs than ASW at least until you get decent ASW skills..

For manilla is it viable to mine the approach ? What about the Taiwan area thats a sub hotspot ?

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

A note on logistics and ASW

Since I decided to attack Pearl Harbor instead of Manilla, it means the submarine menace will be severe, and it will start pretty much from the first day of war.

I have focused my convoy routes to converge on Shanghai and/or Okinawa before moving into Japan. All my convoys will have Shimonoseki as their unloadning port. The main convoy route is shown in green. It will follow that exact path because I want to have it traverse shallow water and bases. All the bases will be mined heavily, in fact the black circled areas are the only places I will mine on the entire map. 400 mines to defend Tarawa might be nice, but what exactly can a minefield accomplish there? One or two minehits on a DD or an AK? 400 Mines at Tsushima will prevent any allied sub to venture there, and a single mine hit will usually cripple or sink a sub.

My ASW forces will be organized into special taskforces consisting of 1 DD and 3 SCs. These will patrol the convoy line marked in green, and several dedicated TFs will patrol the ASW-focus areas highlighted on the map. Im expecting to have at least 15 such taskforces in the Shimonoseki-area.

In addition to this, there will be several dedicated ASW-wings based in the area.

This area will be the almost exclusive focus of all my ASW assets. The convoys themselves will have PB/DD escorts, but only in reasonable numbers. The big TK-convoy will be a floating ASW-fortress however, with at least one CS to provide air-asw cover.

Right now I have moved all my big TKs to Port Arthur to move the oil from there to Japan. All the small TKs are at Cam Rahn Bay where they will wait until the NEI is secure. The small TKs will move oil and fuel to one or two main hubs, where the big TKs will pick it up. The objective is that no big TK will ever be in deep water or more than one hex from shore. More on the extended convoy routes later.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: bklooste


I like it , maybe put some more floats on Naval Search nearby it really helps and maybe more succefull against subs than ASW at least until you get decent ASW skills..

For manilla is it viable to mine the approach ? What about the Taiwan area thats a sub hotspot ?

Yeah, pretty much all of the restricted airunits in Japan will be on ASW or Naval search in that area.

As for Taiwan, I wont be bringing resources or oil home from the NEI for another 2-3 months, so Ive got nothing there right now. Just 5-6 ASW TFs that are running between Vigan and Takao, almost all the USN subs are in that area now it seems. Ive got an idea about how to bring the resources home from the NEI wihtout having to run the gauntlet around Taiwan, will return to that later.

[Takeshi]

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Well in my game...I got lose 5 BBs and about 7 IJN planes were lost..While it is unrealistic to expect exact historicals, a vague similarity to historicals would be nice.

Given how little carrier planes get hurt, I am surprsing more IJN players do not destroy as much as they can.

At least in WITP, it was pretty much guaranteed 25-33 planes would go down (I think 29 was the historic). And follow up attacks were the same.
That means the IJN must (as they should) really have to think about it.

If he coders can do something to make that first strike a bit more close to historics it would be helpful (especially if historic first turn one unhistorically also loses FARCE Z)

The coders have done exactly that. It's call Scenario 6.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"Over Pearl, the second strike were greeted by 40-something P-40Bs and we lost heavily to the allied fighters. All in all about 15 Kates and 10 Zeros were lost over Pearl on this day. We managed to get through though and several BBs were reported as having heavy fires and heavy damage. I hope some will sink, but failing that, they will at least be out of the war for a year or two."


Does anybody else find it odd that this is still fewer losses than those actually suffered by the Japanese Historically during the "suprise attack" on 12/07 when only 5 Allied fighters engaged the attackers? [&:]

Not really. Allied losses are also MUCH lower. I have never gotten anywhere near the historic results for BOTH a/c and ships, nor have I seen an AAR do so either. What I see is roughly commensurate results: JAP losses are about proportionately what the Allies lose.

On aircraft alone, historically the US lost 188 a/c that day for 29 JAP, in addition to all the ships (18 sank or severely damaged) and port and airfield damage. I've never seen better than about 50 a/c ... have you? And 18 ships on the initial attack? Rarely see more than 10 targetted and very rarely get one BB actually sank, let alone the historical 5BB's, 3CL's, 3DD's and 3AUX which were sunk, not mention the others damaged.

All in all , I agree with Cap&Gown .. the game is balanced. If a historical result is desired, play Scen 6. [8|]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Or have the VALs focus on CLs, support ships and subs, while the Kates focus on the BBs...that would be sweet.

But as cap says...what would be the fun in that? Some dice rolls are neccessary

We all dream about this one ... but truth is you would have to sit in the back seat with a .45 to the pilots head to get him to do that. Pilot sees a BB and a CL, he is going to attack the BB everytime even if he KNOW he can't hurt because MAYBE ...

So while I wish we could adjust the targetting, it would be SO against human nature.

What I find amazing, and appreciate someone with background/insight responding, is how little damamge and how many hits it takes of 800kg bombs to sink a BB. I've done some testing with Kates at 8000' with bombs and while you can get the SYS dam to 99 pretty quick, flt/eng rarely climbs. I guess that is accurate, but is there some historical support? I think my testing has gotten up to 50 800kg bomb hits on a PH BB 4 or 5 times. I guess it would seem to me that at some point, it would start opening up seams ... ?

Appreciate the insights and apologize for a minor highjack.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Well in my game...I got lose 5 BBs and about 7 IJN planes were lost..While it is unrealistic to expect exact historicals, a vague similarity to historicals would be nice.

Given how little carrier planes get hurt, I am surprsing more IJN players do not destroy as much as they can.

At least in WITP, it was pretty much guaranteed 25-33 planes would go down (I think 29 was the historic). And follow up attacks were the same.
That means the IJN must (as they should) really have to think about it.

If he coders can do something to make that first strike a bit more close to historics it would be helpful (especially if historic first turn one unhistorically also loses FARCE Z)

Since the game doesnt support refloats it probably is more accurate than we normally get Didnt 6 BBs hit the bottom ?

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund



As for Taiwan, I wont be bringing resources or oil home from the NEI for another 2-3 months, so Ive got nothing there right now. Just 5-6 ASW TFs that are running between Vigan and Takao, almost all the USN subs are in that area now it seems. Ive got an idea about how to bring the resources home from the NEI wihtout having to run the gauntlet around Taiwan, will return to that later.

I mention Taiwan since a stack of US subs will be there its a good opportunity to fluke some kills and you have active Naval search there anyway.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Or have the VALs focus on CLs, support ships and subs, while the Kates focus on the BBs...that would be sweet.

But as cap says...what would be the fun in that? Some dice rolls are neccessary

We all dream about this one ... but truth is you would have to sit in the back seat with a .45 to the pilots head to get him to do that. Pilot sees a BB and a CL, he is going to attack the BB everytime even if he KNOW he can't hurt because MAYBE ...

So while I wish we could adjust the targetting, it would be SO against human nature.

What I find amazing, and appreciate someone with background/insight responding, is how little damamge and how many hits it takes of 800kg bombs to sink a BB. I've done some testing with Kates at 8000' with bombs and while you can get the SYS dam to 99 pretty quick, flt/eng rarely climbs. I guess that is accurate, but is there some historical support? I think my testing has gotten up to 50 800kg bomb hits on a PH BB 4 or 5 times. I guess it would seem to me that at some point, it would start opening up seams ... ?

Appreciate the insights and apologize for a minor highjack.

Pax have you tried the same test while underway and not in port id be interested to see if the flt is reduced due to the port ? It does seem correct that it causes little flt damage though eng should climb more quickly. You are really relying on a CH as armour is almost useless vs these weapons at 90 degrees. Withotu a CH it would take quite a few shells look at the Bismark