The Mershing road exploit (for lack of a better word for now). Missing from WITP stock, or CHS (Brown) is the ability to cut the Malay peninsula in half and prevent an orderly retreat of the Commonwealth troops to Singapore. In AE (Brown) JFB's can land en masse at Mershing, then send a couple of units on the improved road due west (armor if you have it), and the Malay army is cut in half.
So, who got it the map right: Andrew Brown (CHS) or Andrew Brown (AE)?
Brown v Brown
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Brown v Brown
There is only one counter that I can see to the Mersing Gambit. And that's to get lucky with Force Z intercepting the invasion fleet son Dec 7th.
If the Japs DO land at Mersing, they CAN cut the peninsula before anyone can retreat.
I know. THis is what happened to me in my aar "Spilling Blood". On Dec 7th, I set all units possible to "strat mode", to rail to Singapore. The peninsula was cut before they moved. My forces are split in half, with 1k av in between Singapore and the troops up north.
There is absolutely zero reason for anyone to "not" do the Mersing Gambit. There is no counter for it, but pure luck.
If the Japs DO land at Mersing, they CAN cut the peninsula before anyone can retreat.
I know. THis is what happened to me in my aar "Spilling Blood". On Dec 7th, I set all units possible to "strat mode", to rail to Singapore. The peninsula was cut before they moved. My forces are split in half, with 1k av in between Singapore and the troops up north.
There is absolutely zero reason for anyone to "not" do the Mersing Gambit. There is no counter for it, but pure luck.
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mike scholl 1
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: Reverberate
The Mershing road exploit (for lack of a better word for now). Missing from WITP stock, or CHS (Brown) is the ability to cut the Malay peninsula in half and prevent an orderly retreat of the Commonwealth troops to Singapore. In AE (Brown) JFB's can land en masse at Mershing, then send a couple of units on the improved road due west (armor if you have it), and the Malay army is cut in half.
So, who got it the map right: Andrew Brown (CHS) or Andrew Brown (AE)?
Actually, the "Mersing Gambit" should ONLY be available in a non-historical, no surprise, version of the game. To land at Mersing on the opening turn, the Japs would have had to pushed their invasion convoy far enough South the day before that no confusion remained as to their intensions. Which means the Allies could react to the threat.
Landing at Mersing later would certainly be an option..., but on day one it's simply a cheesy rules exploit...
RE: Brown v Brown
It is highly gamey to land at Mersing on Turn One. The Japanese player must, with any realism at all, start at least 8-10 hexes away. British Recon would have picked them up as they did the other TF moving into the area and responded.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
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Reverberate
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RE: Brown v Brown
Forget turn one. Won't it work almost as well if it is executed a few days later? At least it did on me. As it was my first [AE] campaign game.ORIGINAL: John 3rd
It is highly gamey to land at Mersing on Turn One. The Japanese player must, with any realism at all, start at least 8-10 hexes away. British Recon would have picked them up as they did the other TF moving into the area and responded.
My question was: is the map accurate? This "gambit" was not available in any WITP mods.
RE: Brown v Brown
OK. I just re-read the posting. Answered the wrong question.
Map Designers? Does anyone know?
Map Designers? Does anyone know?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Brown v Brown
Don't forget the different hex sizes in the two games allows different interpretations of the geography.....
Cheers,
Reg.
(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!
Reg.
(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!
RE: Brown v Brown
Im one of the culprits, as I am Acepyluts opponent in the game he is referring too. All warp-TFs to Mersing on turn 0 will mean that Singapore falls in mid-December. We have been talking about the Mersing gambit, and there really is no way to stop the Japs if they manage to land on turn 1.
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.
The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..
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Andrew Brown
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: John 3rd
OK. I just re-read the posting. Answered the wrong question.
Map Designers? Does anyone know?
According to my source maps, the road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast is correct.
Andrew
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Andrew Brown
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.
FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.
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mike scholl 1
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.
FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.
Since Force Z didn't even sail from Singapore until the early evening of the 8th (Malaya time), if the "historical start" must have it out to sea a day early, why not sail it to Mersing? That's closer to where it really was than what we have now..., and prevents a ludicrous exploit as well. What do you think Andrew?
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treespider
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.
FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.
Since Force Z didn't even sail from Singapore until the early evening of the 8th (Malaya time), if the "historical start" must have it out to sea a day early, why not sail it to Mersing? That's closer to where it really was than what we have now..., and prevents a ludicrous exploit as well. What do you think Andrew?
Or keep it simple - if you are going to play a non-historical start then the Allies get freedom of movement - "Problem" solved.
Herr Hortlund who used the Turn 0 exploit said as much in his post.
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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mike scholl 1
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: treespider
Or keep it simple - if you are going to play a non-historical start then the Allies get freedom of movement - "Problem" solved.
Minor problem, "Spider". Japanese players generally want to play with "Historical" and "Suprise" ON because of the benefits they get. So in this case making "historical" less a-historical by sending Force Z to Mersing would be simple..., AND solve the "exploit problem".
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Mark Weston
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RE: Brown v Brown
Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?
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mike scholl 1
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: Mark Weston
Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?
Are you sure, Mark? I'm no expert on playing the Japanese, but I thought it was possible to change the destination of the * TF's (the ones that get the extra movement) even in the historical start. Am I wrong?
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Mark Weston
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RE: Brown v Brown
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Are you sure, Mark? I'm no expert on playing the Japanese, but I thought it was possible to change the destination of the * TF's (the ones that get the extra movement) even in the historical start. Am I wrong?
Well yeah, you are [;)]
Start a PBeM game with historical first turn on, all you get to do is set a password and save the turnfile to send to your opponent. You don't actually get to see the map. As soon as the allied player sends it back you're straight into Dec 7th turn resolution.
RE: Brown v Brown
I have no problems with the move. That's part of the game imho.
I did have standard freedom of movement with Force Z, did the usual cancel-the-POW/Repulse-"Please Sink Me at Khota Bharu" button by changing their move orders to pull a few hexes south of Singapore. They formed up with a small CL/DD force and attacked on the 10th. It was too late to prevent anything by then, and as such Force Z HAS to attack on the 7th.
So I guess, in the future, Force Z will always be given "move to Mersing" orders with "retirement" on and a home port of Batavia. And I will pray that I get good die rolls, because even if Force Z intercepts... in the 20 times I've run this against the AI, Force Z usually does not disrupt the invasion.
The Mersing Gambit works best on the first turn, because you want to cut the peninsula in half before the troops in Northern Malaya rail down to Singapore. If you wait a few turns to invade Mersing, then there is time to rail your troops up north and make Fortress Singapore.
I"ve run this strategy about 10-20 times against AI, both as US and Japan...
I did have standard freedom of movement with Force Z, did the usual cancel-the-POW/Repulse-"Please Sink Me at Khota Bharu" button by changing their move orders to pull a few hexes south of Singapore. They formed up with a small CL/DD force and attacked on the 10th. It was too late to prevent anything by then, and as such Force Z HAS to attack on the 7th.
So I guess, in the future, Force Z will always be given "move to Mersing" orders with "retirement" on and a home port of Batavia. And I will pray that I get good die rolls, because even if Force Z intercepts... in the 20 times I've run this against the AI, Force Z usually does not disrupt the invasion.
The Mersing Gambit works best on the first turn, because you want to cut the peninsula in half before the troops in Northern Malaya rail down to Singapore. If you wait a few turns to invade Mersing, then there is time to rail your troops up north and make Fortress Singapore.
I"ve run this strategy about 10-20 times against AI, both as US and Japan...
RE: Brown v Brown
Great thread!
Note to self: If playing non historical allow for force Z dest change.
Note to self: If playing non historical allow for force Z dest change.
Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu
Sun Tzu
RE: Brown v Brown
It does make sense to me. Course the Japanese shouldn't be ALLOWED to Warp in their Landing troops at Mersing on Turn One but that is my .02.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Brown v Brown
I don't think we can assume that the Brits would have spotted a Mersing Invasion "in real life" - any more than we can assume the Japs could make 6 fleet carriers disappear for 2 weeks and end up 100 miles north of Hawaii.
The Mersing Gambit will cost the Japanese a few ships. Maybe 10 at most unless the Jap Cap gets grounded for a day, and the Allies torpedo bombers don't - not likely if Mersing is Capped from a couple of bases. Either that, or I got the worst possible die rolls, every single time.... but to clear out Singapore in December - that's well worth the losses.
As it stands right now, I have about 400AV in Singapore (put all combat troops on rest to restore disablements - clicked on accept replacements for the time being to try and get more troops into the LCU's and also burn some supplies so the Japs don't get them), facing 1k AV at Jhora Bharu (sp -atm I can't remember the spelling). Forts are being built, but they will not get to a very high level before I'm under attack. The only other thing I can do is to fire Percival and replace him with another leader - to try and delay the inevitable for a bit of time.
The Mersing Gambit will cost the Japanese a few ships. Maybe 10 at most unless the Jap Cap gets grounded for a day, and the Allies torpedo bombers don't - not likely if Mersing is Capped from a couple of bases. Either that, or I got the worst possible die rolls, every single time.... but to clear out Singapore in December - that's well worth the losses.
As it stands right now, I have about 400AV in Singapore (put all combat troops on rest to restore disablements - clicked on accept replacements for the time being to try and get more troops into the LCU's and also burn some supplies so the Japs don't get them), facing 1k AV at Jhora Bharu (sp -atm I can't remember the spelling). Forts are being built, but they will not get to a very high level before I'm under attack. The only other thing I can do is to fire Percival and replace him with another leader - to try and delay the inevitable for a bit of time.