Brown v Brown

[anarchyintheuk]

The Kota Bharu force was spotted. Spotting one at Mersing is a relatively safe assumption.

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?

I don't know about force Z but most Japanese players prefer something along the lines of "The Japanese player can do anything they want and the Allied player has to follow history exactly and not change anything"

OK I'm exagerating a little, but a "Non-historical" start usually means a non-historical start for Japanese players and a historical start for Allied players.

[WITPPL]

ORIGINAL: Dobey



I don't know about force Z but most Japanese players prefer something along the lines of "The Japanese player can do anything they want and the Allied player has to follow history exactly and not change anything"

Hey, WHAT is WRONG with that?

[:D][:D][:D]

[AcePylut]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

The Kota Bharu force was spotted. Spotting one at Mersing is a relatively safe assumption.

Then lets assume that a Mersing invasion was spotted... now we have to assume that the British response towards the Mersing Invasion would be different than the one against Kota Bharu. I don't think it would have been.

[Reverberate]

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston
Not sure I understand the problem re Force Z. It has to be a non-historical game for Japan to play for Mersing on turn 1; are there really Japanese players out there who start a non-historical game and try to insist that the allied player can't change Force Z's orders? And if so, does anyone actually play against them?

Monitoring the opponents wanted section about half the JFB's require that Force Z suffer its historical fate. Oh, and they all want Scenario 2, and non-historic start (for Japan). And yes they get takers. Me, for one.

Historic first day solves a lot of these thorny issues. On those rare occasions when I play Japan, I am too overwhelmed/lazy to plot my own Dec. 7th. Figure I'll wait until the 8th to put my mark on history.....

[Reverberate]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
According to my source maps, the road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast is correct.

That would mean you messed up on the CHS map.[X(]

So it's official then, Brown over Brown in a TKO.


P.S. if you get a mulligan on the AE map, get rid of that road!!

[budman999]

From what I remember, the Brits were aware of the unusual movement of Japanese shipping in the area and had stepped up their recon flights.

Of course, it is easy to say the Japanese could do this; but with the presence of British naval and air power in the area, would the Japanese have made this landing in real life?
I'm sure the Brits would have made a vigorous naval and air response to any attempted landing at Mersing.

[Cyber Me]

The Japanese chosing to land in neutral Thailand complicated the British response to their initial reactions in the Malayan Campaign. Brooke-Popham's indecisions over Operation Matador had given the Japs time to unload troops and artillery unopposed. Operation Matador called for a opposing the Jap landings on the beaches, and to use airpower to smash the Jap transports at sea= before they had landed. A Japanese landing at Mersing wouldn't have had the advantage of throwing the initial British plans into ruin before it began as they would have landed where the British wanted them to.

[Mark Weston]

ORIGINAL: Budman

From what I remember, the Brits were aware of the unusual movement of Japanese shipping in the area and had stepped up their recon flights.

Of course, it is easy to say the Japanese could do this; but with the presence of British naval and air power in the area, would the Japanese have made this landing in real life?
I'm sure the Brits would have made a vigorous naval and air response to any attempted landing at Mersing.

Game players have a much higher risk-tolerance than historical military planners...

Certainly the threats as modelled by the game are enough to put this Japanese player off from a turn 1 Mersing. Force Z plus a completely un-suppressed RAF, which you're trying to fight off from bases way off in Indochina. Most of the troops will likely get ashore, but it's going to be expensive and there's always the chance of it going completely pear-shaped.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
According to my source maps, the road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast is correct.

That would mean you messed up on the CHS map.[X(]

So it's official then, Brown over Brown in a TKO.

I'll come out swinging against myself - There is also a "main" road connecting Mersing to the Malayan West coast (Johore Bahru because its a bigger scale) on my old WitP map, so it looks OK as well.

Andrew

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Mark Weston

ORIGINAL: Budman

From what I remember, the Brits were aware of the unusual movement of Japanese shipping in the area and had stepped up their recon flights.

Of course, it is easy to say the Japanese could do this; but with the presence of British naval and air power in the area, would the Japanese have made this landing in real life?
I'm sure the Brits would have made a vigorous naval and air response to any attempted landing at Mersing.

Game players have a much higher risk-tolerance than historical military planners...

Certainly the threats as modelled by the game are enough to put this Japanese player off from a turn 1 Mersing. Force Z plus a completely un-suppressed RAF, which you're trying to fight off from bases way off in Indochina. Most of the troops will likely get ashore, but it's going to be expensive and there's always the chance of it going completely pear-shaped.

I agree. I wouldn't try it on turn one ever. You'll have minimal air cover and facing stringbags with lots of escort. Recipe for disaster.

Most of the AARs I've read haven't found Singapore to be that tough of a nut. Hard to say that is conclusive because of all the patch changes with artillery. Still, it seems less important to isolate all those Malayan units from Singapore in AE. First, because most are junk. Second, the Jap economy is less immediately dependent upon SRA resources/oil than it was in Witp. There's lots to be had in northern China and other already controlled areas so that a delay in setting up the SRA routes isn't as much of a problem.

[AcePylut]

I will try it on every game I play as Japanese.

It's what's been done to me in my recent game (Dec 14th, 41).

Most players have a HR that says "no new aircraft orders" on turn 1, and that's why I'm playing under... so I could give orders to aircraft on Dec 8th, and on Dec 8th...

I threw everything I have at the invasion... every single plane that could fly, flew. Every single dutch bomber that could reach Mersing from Dutch bases were moved to Dutch bases (Palemburg and Singkawap (sp)).

The Singapore airforce gets slaughtered! My opponent LRCapped his fleet with Zero's during the critical Dec 8th and 9th phase. These were enough to kill the Singapore airforce pretty well - yeah I scored a few hits on a few ships - but nohting that would have any real effect on the invasion.

My opponent said he sunk about 20 ships when it was done to him (and he can comment on this)... so I think my opponent Pzr Hortlund learned from his opponent, applied those lessons, and have taught them to me, via the PBEM.

YEah, I sent in my airforce, I sent in Force Z.

Granted, Force Z had a terrible showing - I lost the POW (or Repulse -can't remember which atm) and scratched the paint of a couple of Jap DD's (terrible sea battle). This was on Dec 10th... after my opponent had pulled his xports back out of harms way.

I've run the opening turn about 10-20 times against the AI (i.e. placing my Jap sctf in the hex just east of Mersing, which is where there is a guaranteed intercept from Force Z)... Force Z never once had much of an effect on the landing.

Given than, and the impossibility of the northern Malaya troops reaching Singapore before the peninsula is cut... means that my opponent does not have to deal with a lot of AV in singers, and singers will have low forts when the assault comes.

All in all, Mersing Gambit is THE opening move, imho, from now on.

[AcePylut]

Most of the AARs I've read haven't found Singapore to be that tough of a nut. Hard to say that is conclusive because of all the patch changes with artillery. Still, it seems less important to isolate all those Malayan units from Singapore in AE. First, because most are junk. Second, the Jap economy is less immediately dependent upon SRA resources/oil than it was in Witp. There's lots to be had in northern China and other already controlled areas so that a delay in setting up the SRA routes isn't as much of a problem.

Valid reasons to consider... but there are a couple 100+ AV units up north that could help...

But I think the biggest reason "not" to wait.. is Singapore's forts. Marching down from up north gives plenty of time to build forts. That won't be the case in my game... I'll be luck to reach level 2 by the time they show up.

Not sure how everythign changes with arty... we will see how ti playes out in my aar.

[John 3rd]

It is still, pardon me, nuts to do this on Dec 7/8.  The Japanese tried to avoid tipping anyone off as to the war starting.  It didn't work but think of the possible consequences:
 
1.  Would the British done a pre-emptive strike?  (Doubtful but possible)
2.  Would the Dutch and/or British have sent any warships to Singapore for possible action? The ships at Palembang and Batavia could have gotten there and been WITH Force Z.
3.  Asiatic Action raising American alert status?
 
Just thoughts.  That force would have been spotted two days away.  There would have been time to take additional precautions...
   

[bklooste]

Most games which allow this allow free movement for POW. I like it , it creates a nice risk for the Allied player leave POW in netty range or save them. And for the Japanese players the Kongos will do it tough vs POW.

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
The only way to counter the gambit as I see it is to allow Force Z freedom of movement on turn 0, an allied player can send Force Z to Mersing, and that really throws every Jap invasion plan up into the air. That combined with the massive allied airpower advantage two hexes from Singapore could be very costly indeed for a Japanese player.

FWIW I agree. If a Japanese transport TF was detected moving towards Mersing, Force Z would have tried to intercept, rather than sail off towards Kota Bharu.

[bklooste]

How is it that different from the other malaysian landings ? Its only 6-8 hours or so further south thats like 8 am instead of midnight. The main risk is to the Japanese due to allied CAP while the Japanese lack it and it probably would be a daylight landing ( barring a night dash by some faster ships) which goes against Japanese doctrine.

The invasion began with a bombardment at around 12:30 a.m. local time on 8 December. (The Japanese carrier planes flying towards Pearl Harbor were about 20 minutes away; the attack there started at 02:48 a.m. local time, although it is usually referred to as the 7 December attack as it occurred in the morning of 7 December US time). The loading of landing craft began almost as soon as the transports dropped anchor. Rough seas and strong winds hampered the operation and a number of smaller craft capsized.[3] Several Japanese soldiers drowned. Despite these difficulties, by 12:45 AM the first wave of landing craft was heading for the beach in four lines..

I cant see if they arived at Khota Boru 2 hours earlier and sailed further south till morning or 5 am how it would have made any difference to the surprise. There is a valid argument however of forming more TF to assist force Z but only to assist force Z. If force Z runs then it is doubtfull they would have agressively contested the landings by sea.

Didnt the British do a pre-emptive strike anyway ? Hit the Thai Police and then the Japanese reinforced. Anyway a Japanese player would love that and it would made Thailand a much stronger Ally.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

It is still, pardon me, nuts to do this on Dec 7/8.  The Japanese tried to avoid tipping anyone off as to the war starting.  It didn't work but think of the possible consequences:

1.  Would the British done a pre-emptive strike?  (Doubtful but possible)
2.  Would the Dutch and/or British have sent any warships to Singapore for possible action? The ships at Palembang and Batavia could have gotten there and been WITH Force Z.
3.  Asiatic Action raising American alert status?

Just thoughts.  That force would have been spotted two days away.  There would have been time to take additional precautions...