Singapore - in a post patch world...

[treespider]

What are people's experiences with Singapore in a post-Patch world...

In two separate PBeM anecdotes (both started Post Patch 2 upgraded through Patch 3)-

1st as the Allies - I conducted an active defense of the Malayan Peninsula, Replaced the leadership, but brought in no additional units, and evac-d portion of the Australians-

Result: Singapore fell slightly early, maybe a week sooner than history, couple of days long battles further up the peninsula ended up wrecking the army before it retreated into the city, but the army performed decently in that it held its own for a day or three before collapsing under the crush of Japanese units, most likely from the change in leadership....

2nd as Japan - Allied opponent ran for the fortress and reinforced with units from outside the Peninsula... I believe 18th Div and Gull and Sparrow BN....Singapore is now 2 weeks overdue with no end in sight. I've tried to take it on the "cheap" with 4 divisions plus two armor and 5 artillery units, supported with round the clock aerial bombardment from 100+ sallies, 25 betties and a handful of Sonias and Mary's...

Result: I'm stalemated. I've brought in a couple more heavy Artillery units and Southern Army Command so hopefully the additional support will make a difference.

I'm thinking for my mod - I'm going to make the Malayan/ABDA leaders exorbitantly expensive to replace, probably x5-10 current levels...

Anyhow just wanted to see anyone's experiences with Singapore in the post-Patch World....

[khyberbill]

I have only seen historical results as Allies, although I dont try to hold it because it is so difficult to resupply. I would assume that once the supply levels in Singapore go to 0, you will not have much trouble knocking down the walls.

Are you having a tough time taking the place due to commander(s) or the reinforcements? I once held Soerabaja by moving the 18th there in a WITP PBEM. I was able to bring supply in from Timor (which is where I sent Gull/Sparrow and other odd bits) which I partially held. My foe tried to take both places at the same time and the result was he got neither.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: treespider

What are people's experiences with Singapore in a post-Patch world...

In two separate PBeM anecdotes (both started Post Patch 2 upgraded through Patch 3)-

1st as the Allies - I conducted an active defense of the Malayan Peninsula, Replaced the leadership, but brought in no additional units, and evac-d portion of the Australians-

Result: Singapore fell slightly early, maybe a week sooner than history, couple of days long battles further up the peninsula ended up wrecking the army before it retreated into the city, but the army performed decently in that it held its own for a day or three before collapsing under the crush of Japanese units, most likely from the change in leadership....

2nd as Japan - Allied opponent ran for the fortress and reinforced with units from outside the Peninsula... I believe 18th Div and Gull and Sparrow BN....Singapore is now 2 weeks overdue with no end in sight. I've tried to take it on the "cheap" with 4 divisions plus two armor and 5 artillery units, supported with round the clock aerial bombardment from 100+ sallies, 25 betties and a handful of Sonias and Mary's...

Result: I'm stalemated. I've brought in a couple more heavy Artillery units and Southern Army Command so hopefully the additional support will make a difference.

I'm thinking for my mod - I'm going to make the Malayan/ABDA leaders exorbitantly expensive to replace, probably x5-10 current levels...

Anyhow just wanted to see anyone's experiences with Singapore in the post-Patch World....

Why Spider? The leaders there are already fairly expensive to replace..., and their utter incompetence was one of the biggest reasons for Singpore's early fall (coupled with Winston's misconceptions). But forcing the Allied player to be stupid and keep these fools while his opponent is freely upgrading his CO's all over the map doesn't seem very fair. It's like saying "OK..., the Japanese player gets to play for 4 months, and the Allied player just get's to sit and take it."

I still think the best way to deal with this would be a scenario starting sometime in April with the SRA conquest complete. But barring that, the Allied player ought to be able to "play" without having anvils chained to his feet. I think the biggest thing that weakens the Japanese in the early going was the "over-correction" of bombardments. They went from being idiotically
effective (almost nuclear), to being almost totally ineffective (but still too cheap). They need to recover 20-25% of their effectiveness..., and have the supply cost increased as well. It needs to be enough to allow the Japanese to make progress, but without being so powerful than the Allies can march across Asia behind the mountain of artillery they will get eventually.

My 2 cents...

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: treespider

What are people's experiences with Singapore in a post-Patch world...

In two separate PBeM anecdotes (both started Post Patch 2 upgraded through Patch 3)-

1st as the Allies - I conducted an active defense of the Malayan Peninsula, Replaced the leadership, but brought in no additional units, and evac-d portion of the Australians-

Result: Singapore fell slightly early, maybe a week sooner than history, couple of days long battles further up the peninsula ended up wrecking the army before it retreated into the city, but the army performed decently in that it held its own for a day or three before collapsing under the crush of Japanese units, most likely from the change in leadership....

2nd as Japan - Allied opponent ran for the fortress and reinforced with units from outside the Peninsula... I believe 18th Div and Gull and Sparrow BN....Singapore is now 2 weeks overdue with no end in sight. I've tried to take it on the "cheap" with 4 divisions plus two armor and 5 artillery units, supported with round the clock aerial bombardment from 100+ sallies, 25 betties and a handful of Sonias and Mary's...

Result: I'm stalemated. I've brought in a couple more heavy Artillery units and Southern Army Command so hopefully the additional support will make a difference.

I'm thinking for my mod - I'm going to make the Malayan/ABDA leaders exorbitantly expensive to replace, probably x5-10 current levels...

Anyhow just wanted to see anyone's experiences with Singapore in the post-Patch World....

Why Spider? The leaders there are already fairly expensive to replace..., and their utter incompetence was one of the biggest reasons for Singpore's early fall (coupled with Winston's misconceptions). But forcing the Allied player to be stupid and keep these fools while his opponent is freely upgrading his CO's all over the map doesn't seem very fair. It's like saying "OK..., the Japanese player gets to play for 4 months, and the Allied player just get's to sit and take it."

I still think the best way to deal with this would be a scenario starting sometime in April with the SRA conquest complete. But barring that, the Allied player ought to be able to "play" without having anvils chained to his feet. I think the biggest thing that weakens the Japanese in the early going was the "over-correction" of bombardments. They went from being idiotically
effective (almost nuclear), to being almost totally ineffective (but still too cheap). They need to recover 20-25% of their effectiveness..., and have the supply cost increased as well. It needs to be enough to allow the Japanese to make progress, but without being so powerful than the Allies can march across Asia behind the mountain of artillery they will get eventually.

My 2 cents...

You've got it. Siege warfare was ruined when the siege weapons (artillery) were beaten into a puddle of gelatinous goo with the nerf-bat. Situations that require siege warfare, namely Singapore and Bataan are now extremely hard and a-historically difficult.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


Why Spider? The leaders there are already fairly expensive to replace..., and their utter incompetence was one of the biggest reasons for Singpore's early fall (coupled with Winston's misconceptions). But forcing the Allied player to be stupid and keep these fools while his opponent is freely upgrading his CO's all over the map doesn't seem very fair. It's like saying "OK..., the Japanese player gets to play for 4 months, and the Allied player just get's to sit and take it."

I still think the best way to deal with this would be a scenario starting sometime in April with the SRA conquest complete. But barring that, the Allied player ought to be able to "play" without having anvils chained to his feet. I think the biggest thing that weakens the Japanese in the early going was the "over-correction" of bombardments. They went from being idiotically
effective (almost nuclear), to being almost totally ineffective (but still too cheap). They need to recover 20-25% of their effectiveness..., and have the supply cost increased as well. It needs to be enough to allow the Japanese to make progress, but without being so powerful than the Allies can march across Asia behind the mountain of artillery they will get eventually.

My 2 cents...

And in the end we're still playing a game...in my mod I figured I could still give the Japanese player 6-8 months of happy time before they have to sit there for the next 36 months taking it on the chin from the Allies...

That's part of the beauty of any WWII strategic Sim -- the Axis get approximately 12 months of "happy" time before the Allies get their 24 months. However entailed in that is one of the drawbacks - if the early Offensive period is curtailed the end game may not be as enjoyable...

But If you want to Mod the game where you take away the Axis offensive period your more than welcome to...

[SqzMyLemon]

Singapore fell easily to me, but I had overwhelming numbers and that was with patch 2. Bataan is a completely different beast, post beta patch 3 I think it's become impregnable. I have a rough 3:2 advantage in AV strength (1700+ against 1100+) including 8 artillery units, 6 engineer units. 2 shock and 1 deliberate attacks later, and 2 weeks of air and ground bombardment, the best odds I can get are 1:2 and nothing has reduced the forts from level 4.

I have found the performance of Japanese assets have gotten worse after every patch. With the changes to limit bombardment strength, Japanese ASW and submarine effectiveness, mixed in with commander upgrades improving leadership and skill ratings, any advantage the Japanese forces enjoyed are quickly being diluted to the point of ineffectiveness. If all it takes is the Allied player upgrading his commanders to those of greater experence and skill, and upgrading to the latest patches to counter the initial advantage of Japanese superiority, it's quickly unbalancing the game in my opinion. Yes, the Allies are supposed to take their lumps early and it sucks, however the Japanese will receive it in spades soon enough. I think all the complaining about Japanese superiority has caused the most recent patches to take much of it away. It's bad enough that almost every Japanese player will lose by some degree, but now rather than having the potential for a fun and competitive game hopefully lasting into 44/45, players are screaming for blood to make possible Japanese defeat as early as late 42 early 43, and not necessarily by any great playing skill.

All I know is that if things continue to weaken the Japanese side further, I will not waste my time playing them.

Sorry if this response has drifted off course, just my 2 cents.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Singapore fell easily to me, but I had overwhelming numbers and that was with patch 2. Bataan is a completely different beast, post beta patch 3 I think it's become impregnable. I have a rough 3:2 advantage in AV strength (1700+ against 1100+) including 8 artillery units, 6 engineer units. 2 shock and 1 deliberate attacks later, and 2 weeks of air and ground bombardment, the best odds I can get are 1:2 and nothing has reduced the forts from level 4.

I have found the performance of Japanese assets have gotten worse after every patch. With the changes to limit bombardment strength, Japanese ASW and submarine effectiveness, mixed in with commander upgrades improving leadership and skill ratings, any advantage the Japanese forces enjoyed are quickly being diluted to the point of ineffectiveness. If all it takes is the Allied player upgrading his commanders to those of greater experence and skill, and upgrading to the latest patches to counter the initial advantage of Japanese superiority, it's quickly unbalancing the game in my opinion. Yes, the Allies are supposed to take their lumps early and it sucks, however the Japanese will receive it in spades soon enough. I think all the complaining about Japanese superiority has caused the most recent patches to take much of it away. It's bad enough that almost every Japanese player will lose by some degree, but now rather than having the potential for a fun and competitive game hopefully lasting into 44/45, players are screaming for blood to make possible Japanese defeat as early as late 42 early 43, and not necessarily by any great playing skill.

All I know is that if things continue to weaken the Japanese side further, I will not waste my time playing them.

Sorry if this response has drifted off course, just my 2 cents.

I'm actually considering rolling back to an earlier build to play the game. It is getting to the point of not being at all fun when playing as Japan. I can't imagine it being fun to play as Allies when all I have to do show up, hit end turn and win.

I think I'm going to mod artillery effect for an 'against the AI' mod and see if that helps somewhat undo the severe nerfing its received due to all the whining on the subject.

[Q-Ball]

One fix to Bataan is to just let it wither on the vine. Eventually they will run out of supplies and start to starve. This won't work on Singapore, there are too many supplies there, and you need that base quicker.

In WITP, Artillery was worthless. All it did was train the other guy's troops. I hope we're not back to that with AE, because Artillery should be able to do SOMETHING, even if the original builds were maybe overboard on Artillery effectiveness.

Let's get more results before passing judgement, but so far I am thinking that Artillery is not worth the effort anymore

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

One fix to Bataan is to just let it wither on the vine. Eventually they will run out of supplies and start to starve. This won't work on Singapore, there are too many supplies there, and you need that base quicker.

In WITP, Artillery was worthless. All it did was train the other guy's troops. I hope we're not back to that with AE, because Artillery should be able to do SOMETHING, even if the original builds were maybe overboard on Artillery effectiveness.

Let's get more results before passing judgement, but so far I am thinking that Artillery is not worth the effort anymore

My experience to this point post-patches is that were basically back to WiTP Vanilla status...don't waste your time training the enemy.

[SqzMyLemon]

As always Q-Ball, a very intelligent and moderate viewpoint. I agree, it is early to pass judgement and I am new to the game and learning more everyday. Perhaps, I'm too competive and that reflects not taking reverses well at times, but I'm also not an idiot. I see a disturbing trend here. Bataan and Singapore are just two examples of situations that can appear in numerous other areas of the map now. China being one of them.

I want to point out an example from another game I am playing as Japan. I'm beseiged in Hankow by a Chinese force of about 4400AV, my defending force is roughly 2700AV. We each have over 1000 artillery/mortar pieces per side. Fort level of the city is 4. Supply for both sides is good. One days round of bombardment by both sides, resulted in Japanese and Chinese casualites of 13 and 20, respectively, and of course no fort reduction. That seems ridiculous.

The great killer in wars since World War 1 has been artillery, not small arms. If this isn't modified I think the game will become unbalanced. Yes, it affects both sides, but since the onus is on the Japanese to be the early aggressor, I think it is becoming very difficult to overcome. A defending player just has to mass at a few key strategic locations and with the ineffectiveness of artillery now, they won't be budged without having to strip entire areas of enough AV to accomplish a successful attack.

I hope this comment does not appear confrontational to anyone, just observations I have made during play, and from reading other threads and AAR's. I'm bringing them up to add to the discussion, hopefully in a constructive way. I'm not saying the game sucks or is broken, but I am worried about this particular trend.