Artillery - Pointless?

[PresterJohn001]

How should i use Artillery because it doesn't seem to have much of an effect at all now? The latest patch seems to have nerfed it to oblivion.

[Shark7]

Tie a rope to the artillery pieces and use them to anchor your transports. It's about all their good for now.

[freeboy]

Well, what side?
As an allied player I mass my art and armor to over run bases quickly, without it your not going to knock out the fortifications nearly as quickly... tnign it down is a good thing, remember the game is trying to slow the advances of blitzkrieg liek speed, or faster, in areas that it just should never happen...
So, If you are not gettingthe former results.. thats good... again which side and what year?

[PresterJohn001]

I have two games, both as the Japanese in May/June '42. Really my rapid expansion phase is over so its no big deal to me. However succesive patches seem to have taken Artillery from very overpowered to slightly overpowered to about right and now to no use.

The results i see now (both sides) show Artillery use is often as dangerous to the bombarder as the target.

These are just my observations from playing a couple of PBEM's

[Smeulders]

We've noticed the same our PBEM, the Japanese have been shelling Bataan for quite a while with 6 artillery units, with hardly any effect. Of course the terrain and fortifications help my forces quite a bit, but the only difference significant impact the artillery has had is on the supply usage of the Japanese.

[freeboy]

well, we need to " sand box it " where we run art and no art attacks againt hte same hex... same save just with two tracks.. and then we will know.. I am way to busy but soemone should do this... thanks

[treespider]

Before declaring Artillery nerfed has anybody tested this?

1. What are the disruption levels of the defending units Pre and Post bombardment?

2. What are the fatigue levels of the defending units Pre and Post Bombardment?

3. How much supply is consumed by defending units Pre and Post Bombardment?

[WITPPL]

I use them to dump my toxic waste somewhere around bikini atol in my IJN PBEM.

Thank god that my 8 divisions which have landed at Ohau can dance a boogie under so called USA "Artilery" shelling and call it a "just a bit thicker fog".

[WITPPL]

It should be a secret to my opponet but what the hell,

NADA, NONE, ZIPP.

My troops at Ohau were shelled day by day since I have landed there 1,5 or 2 moths ago.
It was painfull before changes were implemented.

Since then:

My troops are fully rested and organized.
I mean, tottally. Like 0-3 pts max.
Sure, most is in a reserve mode.

Supply: NADA.
I am quite sure that he is loosing more by trying than me just sitting under shells.

We are talking about small island, 8 divisions of targets and more than a few artillery pieces at my opponent arsenal.

Save on request.

ORIGINAL: treespider

Before declaring Artillery nerfed has anybody tested this?

1. What are the disruption levels of the defending units Pre and Post bombardment?

2. What are the fatigue levels of the defending units Pre and Post Bombardment?

3. How much supply is consumed by defending units Pre and Post Bombardment?

[Q-Ball]

One thing is for sure: Green troops will train up nicely if they are being bombarded by artillery. Unless there is some benefit in terms of casualities, disruption, etc, you are just doing the Allies a favor by bombarding Chinese or Filipino or Malayan troops.

I would like some answers to Tree's question.

Certainly, in WITP I thought artillery was worthless

[Chickenboy]

I think the jury is still out re: artillery being worthless. I think it's a more complex question than that:

1. I don't think artillery is worthless when combined with an infantry assault. I believe that it causes casualties as intended and makes the assault at least marginally more successful.
2. I know that artillery against a demoralized, ill-supplied and poorly led infantry unit in the open will still result in substantial casualties.
3. Bombardment per se (just the artillery acting on their own) still causes casualties in the defender's worst case scenario (see #2). Otherwise, bombardment does little.
4. Are players that are seeing poor bombardment or artillery results sure that they have enough independent artillery in the hex with them? I'd start piling it on (HRs be damned)-more and more and more independent artillery units until you saw some effect.

My two bits.

[Nemo121]

Really someone needs to sandbox this before we can speak from a position of knowledge. I'm knee-deep in trying to bodge in SAMs, Allied PGMs and all manner of other similar high-tech stuff for games which make it to 1945/6 but maybe someone else has a burning desire to figure out how arty works?

[freeboy]

pok, my pbem oponeent leftthe turn at school... oops.. and we are redoinghis last turn after work later so I will run some H2H runs .. give me an hour

[Altaris]

I find that it's similar to Ground Attacks from planes. It works very well in Clear terrain against unfortified troops, more from causing the defender disruption/fatigue than anything else. In non-Clear terrain, though, or against heavy forts (5+), it seems to do the bombarding force more damage than the one being bombarded. I've notice fatigue for the attacker has gone through the nose for bombarding missions, it's not unusual if I'm bombarding to see my fatigue go from like the 0-3 range to 20-25 over 2 days of bombardment (playing on 2-day turns, so not sure what the effect of individual days are). But yes, in my PBEM as the Allies, the Japanese have been trying to bombard my Chinese in several good defensive points, and do next to no damage, while my troops have gotten into the low 50s XP from it, so I'd say I've come out as the only winner at all in the bombardment battle. I'd like to note that some of these have occurred in non-base MTN and WR hexes, so the only forts I have in these locations are the ones my troops build on their own and forts don't seem to play a major part in it.
 
At Clark Field, even with my forts having been knocked down to 3, I'm still suffering next to no damage from bombardments. At Singapore, bombardments have been fairly effective though, despite initially having 5 forts here. I suspect terrain plays a much bigger part in how effective bombardments are than forts, based off of what I've seen.
 
I usually approach bombardments this way:
 
1) Against Clear terrain, always worth bombarding if you're not attacking directly
2) In x2 terrain (Ul, Wd, Jg, etc) it's worth bombarding if you have massed artillery, otherwise, probably better to save on the supplies and avoid the fatigue
3) In x3 or x4 terrain, it's not worth doing, you're just wasting supplies
 
I could be wrong on these assumptions, but so far that's how it seems to play out to me. I concur that artillery has been a bit over-nerfed, at the very least it should provide *some* result for the attacker in massed artillery situations. Granted, it was a bit ridiculous originally, but now it's lost most of its teeth, while taking on some other nasty attributes like the heavy fatigue on the bombarding units.

[freeboy]

well that was interesting, not the good interesting, but the interesting that leaves you feeling kinda sick t oyour stomach!
So, after several bombard and ground attack with one unit Hong kong remains totally safe
This is an emergency! lol art is not working ! WOW

[Altaris]

Try it in Clear terrain, I bet you find much different results...
 
Then try in x2 terrain, like a Wood or Urban Light hex, here I think it comes out about 50/50 whether it's worth doing.

[Canoerebel]

I was one of those punished unmercifully by "nuclear artillery" shortly after the release of AE - especially in China.

Things got so bad in China that we finally had to shut down offensive operations there (factors going into that decision were very complicated, but in essence artillery and strategic bombing had destroyed China).

Since then we haven't had any engagements involving massed artillery.  There have been plenty of two- or three-unit groups involved in major invasions in the Pacific.  It has seemed to me that artillery is effective within reason, but certainly no longer nuked.

[SqzMyLemon]

These are my last two assaults on Bataan against my opponent in my AAR. This was preceded by weeks of artillery and air bombardment, often upwards of 60+ bombers, not always at the same time mind you. Bataan has been under seige for almost a month now and there is NO discernable reduction in the defences of the Base. Supply and disruption appear to not be a factor for the defenders either, after as I said, almost a month under siege with constant shelling or bombing. Fort levels were 4 at the start of the siege, and have never dropped below that level. I thought I had sufficient force to not take the base outright, but at least wear it down to the point I could eventually assault it. I have also suffered two previous shock attack repulses. I believe one was in the 8000k+ casualty range for the Japanese, so I did have greather strength than what is shown now. I don't know, is this unreasonable? [&:] At least something concrete to start basing opinions on.

Ground combat at Bataan (78,77)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 60849 troops, 589 guns, 653 vehicles, Assault Value = 1963

Defending force 45774 troops, 898 guns, 739 vehicles, Assault Value = 1186

Japanese adjusted assault: 1466

Allied adjusted defense: 3319

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4276 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 151 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 271 disabled
Engineers: 35 destroyed, 58 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 72 (5 destroyed, 67 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
2502 casualties reported
Squads: 47 destroyed, 97 disabled
Non Combat: 47 destroyed, 216 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Vehicles lost 44 (20 destroyed, 24 disabled)


Assaulting units:
16th Engineer Regiment
48th Engineer Regiment
65th Brigade
48th Recon Regiment
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
2nd Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
Tanaka Detachment
47th Infantry Regiment
2nd Recon Regiment
4th Division
2nd Tank Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
16th Recon Regiment
Kanno Detachment
4th Tank Regiment
1st Formosa Inf. Regiment
38th Division
7th Tank Regiment
14th Army
38th Road Const Co
4th JAAF AF Bn
48th Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Engineer Construction Battalion
37th Const Co
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
4th JAAF Base Force
8th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
31st PA Infantry Division
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
194th Tank Battalion
21st PA Infantry Division
51st PA Infantry Division
2nd PA Constabulary Regiment
41st PA Infantry Division
31st Infantry Regiment
2nd PA Constblry HW Regiment
91st PA Infantry Division
4th PA Constabulary Regiment
Manila Bay Defenses
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
4th Marine Regiment
14th PS Engineer Regiment
1st PA Infantry Division
71st PA Infantry Division
11th PA Infantry Division
192nd Tank Battalion
102nd PA Infantry Division
803rd Engineer Aviation Battalion
Bataan USN Base Force
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
301st Construction Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp
1st USMC AA Battalion
Cavite USN Base Force
Manila USAAF Base Force
Far East USAAF
USAFFE
202nd PA Construction Battalion
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
201st PA Construction Battalion
Asiatic Fleet
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment
--------------------------------------------------------


Ground combat at Bataan (78,77)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 57293 troops, 586 guns, 649 vehicles, Assault Value = 1769

Defending force 43437 troops, 898 guns, 718 vehicles, Assault Value = 1032

Japanese adjusted assault: 721

Allied adjusted defense: 2327

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
8248 casualties reported
Squads: 57 destroyed, 245 disabled
Non Combat: 89 destroyed, 289 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 174 disabled
Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 197 (68 destroyed, 129 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1838 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 86 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 237 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 33 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 43 (10 destroyed, 33 disabled)


Assaulting units:
16th Recon Regiment
4th Division
Tanaka Detachment
2nd Recon Regiment
2nd Engineer Regiment
1st Formosa Inf. Regiment
65th Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
47th Infantry Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
Kanno Detachment
48th Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
38th Division
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
48th Recon Regiment
7th Tank Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
48th Field Artillery Regiment
4th JAAF AF Bn
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
38th Road Const Co
16th Engineer Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
14th Army
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Engineer Construction Battalion
4th JAAF Base Force
37th Const Co
8th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
Manila Bay Defenses
1st PA Infantry Division
51st PA Infantry Division
14th PS Engineer Regiment
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
91st PA Infantry Division
31st Infantry Regiment
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
192nd Tank Battalion
4th PA Constabulary Regiment
2nd PA Constblry HW Regiment
21st PA Infantry Division
2nd PA Constabulary Regiment
4th Marine Regiment
11th PA Infantry Division
41st PA Infantry Division
194th Tank Battalion
71st PA Infantry Division
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
31st PA Infantry Division
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
102nd PA Infantry Division
803rd Engineer Aviation Battalion
1st USMC AA Battalion
201st PA Construction Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp
Manila USAAF Base Force
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
Far East USAAF
USAFFE
Asiatic Fleet
202nd PA Construction Battalion
Bataan USN Base Force
Cavite USN Base Force
301st Construction Battalion
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

These are my last two assaults on Bataan against my opponent in my AAR. This was preceded by weeks of artillery and air bombardment, often upwards of 60+ bombers, not always at the same time mind you. Bataan has been under seige for almost a month now and there is NO discernable reduction in the defences of the Base. Supply and disruption appear to not be a factor for the defenders either, after as I said, almost a month under siege with constant shelling or bombing. Fort levels were 4 at the start of the siege, and have never dropped below that level. I thought I had sufficient force to not take the base outright, but at least wear it down to the point I could eventually assault it. I have also suffered two previous shock attack repulses. I believe one was in the 8000k+ casualty range for the Japanese, so I did have greather strength than what is shown now. I don't know, is this unreasonable? [&:] At least something concrete to start basing opinions on.

Ground combat at Bataan (78,77)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 60849 troops, 589 guns, 653 vehicles, Assault Value = 1963

Defending force 45774 troops, 898 guns, 739 vehicles, Assault Value = 1186

Japanese adjusted assault: 1466

Allied adjusted defense: 3319

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4276 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 151 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 271 disabled
Engineers: 35 destroyed, 58 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 72 (5 destroyed, 67 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
2502 casualties reported
Squads: 47 destroyed, 97 disabled
Non Combat: 47 destroyed, 216 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Vehicles lost 44 (20 destroyed, 24 disabled)


Assaulting units:
16th Engineer Regiment
48th Engineer Regiment
65th Brigade
48th Recon Regiment
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
2nd Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
Tanaka Detachment
47th Infantry Regiment
2nd Recon Regiment
4th Division
2nd Tank Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
16th Recon Regiment
Kanno Detachment
4th Tank Regiment
1st Formosa Inf. Regiment
38th Division
7th Tank Regiment
14th Army
38th Road Const Co
4th JAAF AF Bn
48th Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Engineer Construction Battalion
37th Const Co
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
4th JAAF Base Force
8th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
31st PA Infantry Division
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
194th Tank Battalion
21st PA Infantry Division
51st PA Infantry Division
2nd PA Constabulary Regiment
41st PA Infantry Division
31st Infantry Regiment
2nd PA Constblry HW Regiment
91st PA Infantry Division
4th PA Constabulary Regiment
Manila Bay Defenses
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
4th Marine Regiment
14th PS Engineer Regiment
1st PA Infantry Division
71st PA Infantry Division
11th PA Infantry Division
192nd Tank Battalion
102nd PA Infantry Division
803rd Engineer Aviation Battalion
Bataan USN Base Force
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
301st Construction Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp
1st USMC AA Battalion
Cavite USN Base Force
Manila USAAF Base Force
Far East USAAF
USAFFE
202nd PA Construction Battalion
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
201st PA Construction Battalion
Asiatic Fleet
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment
--------------------------------------------------------


Ground combat at Bataan (78,77)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 57293 troops, 586 guns, 649 vehicles, Assault Value = 1769

Defending force 43437 troops, 898 guns, 718 vehicles, Assault Value = 1032

Japanese adjusted assault: 721

Allied adjusted defense: 2327

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
8248 casualties reported
Squads: 57 destroyed, 245 disabled
Non Combat: 89 destroyed, 289 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 174 disabled
Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 197 (68 destroyed, 129 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1838 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 86 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 237 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 33 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 43 (10 destroyed, 33 disabled)


Assaulting units:
16th Recon Regiment
4th Division
Tanaka Detachment
2nd Recon Regiment
2nd Engineer Regiment
1st Formosa Inf. Regiment
65th Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
47th Infantry Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
Kanno Detachment
48th Engineer Regiment
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
38th Division
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
48th Recon Regiment
7th Tank Regiment
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
48th Field Artillery Regiment
4th JAAF AF Bn
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
38th Road Const Co
16th Engineer Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
14th Army
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Engineer Construction Battalion
4th JAAF Base Force
37th Const Co
8th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
Manila Bay Defenses
1st PA Infantry Division
51st PA Infantry Division
14th PS Engineer Regiment
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
91st PA Infantry Division
31st Infantry Regiment
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
192nd Tank Battalion
4th PA Constabulary Regiment
2nd PA Constblry HW Regiment
21st PA Infantry Division
2nd PA Constabulary Regiment
4th Marine Regiment
11th PA Infantry Division
41st PA Infantry Division
194th Tank Battalion
71st PA Infantry Division
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
31st PA Infantry Division
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
102nd PA Infantry Division
803rd Engineer Aviation Battalion
1st USMC AA Battalion
201st PA Construction Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp
Manila USAAF Base Force
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
Far East USAAF
USAFFE
Asiatic Fleet
202nd PA Construction Battalion
Bataan USN Base Force
Cavite USN Base Force
301st Construction Battalion
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment

For a seige of this size, I'm underwhelmed by the amount of independent artillery that you've brought to the party. Most of what you brought is of battalion size, lots of mortars. I see three regimental artillery contributions, but you could easily double (treble?) this contribution by buying out more of the Kwangtung artillery and bringing it to bear.

[freeboy]

ok.. my assault on HK the art did absolutely nothing.. I do not need artillery in the open, but as the allies in pbem land It helps take bases by redusing the enemy.. so.. this is an issue, BUT it affects us both.. does that mean if I can supply the great Hord, amn that was a temtping typo moment, I can activate China?