How about this change to the 'bounce'?

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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

ORIGINAL: dbfw190

"My opponent is going with max alt too, so I guess he´s got the same opinion on what is good (for his fighters) and what is not."
being gamey?

sending in Zero's at 15k where MVR rating is at least 10 above my opponents at same altitutde is good enough for me. I know that taking losses is inevitable. I think playing the "altitude game" is an excuse for people to not take any losses. In my 2 or 3 months of playing this game I've been playing as Japan. Even if I was playing as the Allies though, I still wouldnt play the altitude game.
If my opponent wants to be gamey then I just wont play him. no sense playing someone who's afraid to take an arse whooping.
But for allied players, if you encounter Stratosweeps, try to focus on shutting down the airfield.. easier said than done.

All I'm saying is, my opponet will never see stratosweeps or anything like that.


I think you may well be onto something about players wanting some magic tactic to win every combat and strato sweeps seem to be a popular option to try and achieve this. Elfs' house rule idea is great for those of us not interested in gaming the system for advantages. Good post and even better attitude ..

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
findmeifyoucan
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by findmeifyoucan »

Wow, aren't we getting a little Ancy? I still say if I am a Veteran and you a novice coming down from 40k, I am at 10k, I will still kick your ass and you will be swimming with the fishes!!! LOL :-)))
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

If you see a green pilot pilot coming down all the way from 40k...maybe. And by green pilot I mean
the typical Japanese late war pilot with just a few hours logged.
 
Definitely no ass kicking of a novice with training in tactics and combat manouvres with average skills and an alt advantage of
30k. If you make a habit of accepting combat in such an adverse situation chances are probably high that you would not ever
have the time to reach veteran status in the first place IMO.
 
Though this is academical anyway cause it would be the wing leader of the novice pilot coming at you from 40k
with the novice flying cover. 
 
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

ORIGINAL: dbfw190

"My opponent is going with max alt too, so I guess he´s got the same opinion on what is good (for his fighters) and what is not."
being gamey?

sending in Zero's at 15k where MVR rating is at least 10 above my opponents at same altitutde is good enough for me. I know that taking losses is inevitable. I think playing the "altitude game" is an excuse for people to not take any losses. In my 2 or 3 months of playing this game I've been playing as Japan. Even if I was playing as the Allies though, I still wouldnt play the altitude game.
If my opponent wants to be gamey then I just wont play him. no sense playing someone who's afraid to take an arse whooping.
But for allied players, if you encounter Stratosweeps, try to focus on shutting down the airfield.. easier said than done.

All I'm saying is, my opponet will never see stratosweeps or anything like that.


I think you may well be onto something about players wanting some magic tactic to win every combat and strato sweeps seem to be a popular option to try and achieve this. Elfs' house rule idea is great for those of us not interested in gaming the system for advantages. Good post and even better attitude ..


Second that. [:)]
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SqzMyLemon
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by SqzMyLemon »

I agree that the current suggestion of a HR on this issue is a good idea. I'd just like to point out that I don't believe most players automatically resort to stratospheric sweeps on purpose. I'd love to use my planes in their optimum altitude band as well, but if you are trying to do that, and your opponent is handing your ass to you with higher altitude interdictions on a regular basis, your first inclination is to raise your altitude as well. Very noble to say you will soldier on and take your lumps because your opponent is being gamey, but not fun either. So perhaps finding an opponent who will agree to such a HR is in the best interest for those who wish to stay within the spirit of competitive gameplay.

Why does the MVR and skill rating of planes/pilots not carry more weight than a height advantage in game terms? I'm sure not every dogfight ended in favour of the plane/pilot at the higher altitude, regardless of plane type or pilot experience? I'm no expert, but quality must count for something...no? As Elf mentioned, if there is no air in this game, couldn't the height advantage carry less weight than a planes MVR and pilot skill (or whatever criteria may be used to avoid a height rock/paper/scissors situation) in determining the combat results?

And what about when you are escorting? If forced to keep escorts at the same altitude setting as the bombers to insure they actually are escorted, how can you reasonably expect a force to achieve good results when they almost always will be interdicted by a force with a height advantage? It's not always feasible to clear the target area first by sweeps prior to your bombers going in for whatever reason. In some situations they must be escorted to have any chance of success. My escorting planes in the 12-20000 ft range are getting chewed up, and the bombers more so in these raids where my opponent is NOT flying at extreme altitudes.

Just some thoughts.
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Why does the MVR and skill rating of planes/pilots not carry more weight than a height advantage in game terms? I'm sure not every dogfight ended in favour of the plane/pilot at the higher altitude, regardless of plane type or pilot experience? I'm no expert, but quality must count for something...no? As Elf mentioned, if there is no air in this game, couldn't the height advantage carry less weight than a planes MVR and pilot skill (or whatever criteria may be used to avoid a height rock/paper/scissors situation) in determining the combat results?

Pilot skill has a MAJOR impact on A2A in game and in RL.

MVR is really a minor value compared to other stats as max speed and rate of climb there are two reasons for this:

When you look at RL mid-late war engagements the classic dogfight did not exist anymore.
Planes made "boom and zoom" attacks from a position of advantage and the optimal situation was when you did not even
give the defender time to counter such a move.
This was one of the reasons why the Zero was exceptional at the start of the war when pilots still were trained in WWI dogfighting
skills and underestimated the impact of a high speed airframe. As soon as the Allies found out that the one weakness of Japanese
planes in general was their low weight, bad dive performance and low topspeed they also noted their own airframe´s strong points
and the era of the dogfights was over.

The second reason is related to the game: the Zero bonus (a modification from stock war in the pacific that added a bonus value
to the Zero for the first 6 months of the war to simulate exactly the above developement) is unnessesary when you can simulate
the same developement using the top speed as a major impacting variable.
Earlywar planes have very identical topspeeds, giving the Zero the advantage on the MVR side it also posessed in RL.
When newer Allied airframes with better speed start to arrive the MVR value loses its dominance and the tide turns at it was
in history.
ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
And what about when you are escorting? If forced to keep escorts at the same altitude setting as the bombers to insure they actually are escorted, how can you reasonably expect a force to achieve good results when they almost always will be interdicted by a force with a height advantage? It's not always feasible to clear the target area first by sweeps prior to your bombers going in for whatever reason. In some situations they must be escorted to have any chance of success. My escorting planes in the 12-20000 ft range are getting chewed up, and the bombers more so in these raids where my opponent is NOT flying at extreme altitudes.

Just some thoughts.

Short answer: Rough up the target base with seeps only some time before you commit your bombers to the task.
This was exactly done by the Allies long time before the sent their bulk of bombers into harms way.

Escorts naturally are at disadvantage because they have to keep the attackers off the bombers and sacrifice
speed and freedom of manouvre for this task.
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findmeifyoucan
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by findmeifyoucan »

Actually as a Veteran pilot the only reason I would be at that low of elevation is because I just finished off a fighter and on my way back to gain my elevation advantage to shoot down another one. roflmao
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

Actually as a Veteran pilot the only reason I would be at that low of elevation is because I just finished off a fighter and on my way back to gain my elevation advantage to shoot down another one. roflmao

...and maybe on takeoff, landing, navigating in 10/10 sky conditions or low visibility, close escort for low level raiders, strafing missions, icing, flying below radar horizon, after a dive to evade combat, and a few others that
I can´t think of at the moment? [:D]
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findmeifyoucan
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by findmeifyoucan »

Maybe it is just my Aussie blood but if I were an Ace I wouldn't be trying to hide from combat by ducking under radar or just plain and simply trying to evade combat. I would be saying bring it on! Us Aussie's are not like Americans who try to avoid combat unless they have overwhelming odds.

I hope that developers don't listen to the Americans complaining about the game because it is just too hard and that they are getting beaten up by the Japanese too much either and adjusting the game to be unhistorically balanced towards the Allied side. :-)))
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

I guess there are some Aussies here who would disagree. But were off topic now anyway...

If I was Santa Clause I would tune my sledge btw...
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findmeifyoucan
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by findmeifyoucan »

What ever that means. Oh yeah, over there you have no snow that's right so you'd have to run on wheels not ski's. :-))
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TheElf
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

Actually as a Veteran pilot the only reason I would be at that low of elevation is because I just finished off a fighter and on my way back to gain my elevation advantage to shoot down another one. roflmao
What are you a veteran pilot of?
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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findmeifyoucan
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by findmeifyoucan »

Oh don't mind me. Just a little history on myself. I am a car salesman so never lost for words, also a computer teky and beat a chess master when I was 17. A WWII historian by hobby. :-))
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TheElf
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

Oh don't mind me. Just a little history on myself. I am a car salesman so never lost for words, also a computer teky and beat a chess master when I was 17. A WWII historian by hobby. :-))
So does this mean you are not a veteran pilot?
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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treespider
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

Oh don't mind me. Just a little history on myself. I am a car salesman so never lost for words, also a computer teky and beat a chess master when I was 17. A WWII historian by hobby. :-))
So does this mean you are not a veteran pilot?


I bet he slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night...[;)]
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Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

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SqzMyLemon
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by SqzMyLemon »

Too funny treespider [:D] Kind of debunks that whole advertising campaign now though. [:-]
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

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[;)]



I had an interesting combat situation against my honoured opponent Rob Brennan yesterday.

I was LRCAPing a FT TF from Rabaul about 6 hexes away.
There were several attack out of PM:
First an unescorted wave of SBD´s was decimated but in the afternoon there was a beautiful
combat against VIC´s doing strafing runs @ 100.
My CAP was at 25k and did not bounce, it was one of those replays where I sat, watched and crossed fingers.
In fact I lost more Zeros than Beaufighters shot down
(1:3 odds?).

I guess one of the reasons was that the Zero squad already had lost many of its veteran pilots and so in the afternoon phase
the pilots airborne were only mediocre.

Very thrilling combat with believable results! [8D]

Sometimes we overestimate the ammount of issues with A2A because most people just enjoy watching the fights and only
post here when they experience something which seems off.
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

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[;)]



I had an interesting combat situation against my honoured opponent Rob Brennan yesterday.

I was LRCAPing a FT TF from Rabaul about 6 hexes away.
There were several attack out of PM:
First an unescorted wave of SBD´s was decimated but in the afternoon there was a beautiful
combat against VIC´s doing strafing runs @ 100.
My CAP was at 25k and did not bounce, it was one of those replays where I sat, watched and crossed fingers.
In fact I lost more Zeros than Beaufighters shot down
(1:3 odds?).

I guess one of the reasons was that the Zero squad already had lost many of its veteran pilots and so in the afternoon phase
the pilots airborne were only mediocre.

Very thrilling combat with believable results! [8D]

Sometimes we overestimate the ammount of issues with A2A because most people just enjoy watching the fights and only
post here when they experience something which seems off.

AFAIK Caps re-sets for the PM phase so it would be a differant CAP set of planes. Its just my opinion but i think that it's the alt differance being BIG .. so a short intercept time on target, probably also affected by my leader who's in the 80's air skill stopping the bounce effect. after all if you fly down at speed to hit a target 100ft above the waves your going to be a thin metal pancake floating away in about 2 seconds after intercept [;)].

I just looked and both were morning attacks apparently ..

Morning Air attack on TF, near Cape Gloucester at 102,123

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8



Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 14


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 10 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CL Kitakami

Number 2

Morning Air attack on TF, near Cape Gloucester at 102,123

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1



Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIC x 10


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufighter VIC: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
APD-39
APD-34, Shell hits 10
APD-1



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Beaufighter VIC bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb

CR for any follow on discussions.

Obviously i wouldnt expect the entire raid to fly all the way at 100ft , kind of suprised when i notice spotted at 12k .. In my imaginary AE air combat world I'd have thought that they would decend to the deck outside of possible radar detection. this has some serious implications for late war 'sneak' low level kami attacks too.


PS love the snoopy sig LoBaron .. seems very appropriate
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
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LoBaron
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by LoBaron »

Rob you are right. I didn´t check and they were really both morning attacks.
So the Beaufighters only tangled with the remaining Zero that didn´t
run out of fuel or ammo or had battle damage after they jumped the SBDs.
 
Wonder how random the inbound/outbound alt is on strafing runs. 12k would be a bit high
if the intention is to go in below radar.
 
Thanks re. the sig. Was a kind of random event that lead to it but I think it fits. [;)] 
 
 
 
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findmeifyoucan
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RE: How about this change to the 'bounce'?

Post by findmeifyoucan »

Just Air Cadets, Daddy wouldn't let me go further. Not enough money in it. LOL But I had you going for a while didn't I? roflmao
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