Whose to blame for starting WWI?

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GoodGuy
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: billyjj

The point is the Germans slaughtered the late 1918 offensive and had the war pretty much won at that point.

LOL.
Ok, there's no need to emit more than a one-liner for such an unqualified comment:

You can't win a war once you've run out of troops.
If there was no "stab in the back" then what was all the fuss about? you tell me?

The fuss was created to win over the Germans for a certain course (the Nazi party's and national conservatives' course).
It works like this: You publish a lie in order to discredit your political opponent.
Works since ancient Greece, means since several thousand years.
Getting it now?
"Aw Nuts"
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billyjj
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by billyjj »

Goodguy, you are a smart man and sincere and you obviously read a lot of history books. But it seems to me there were an awful lot of people in Germany during that time (Generals included) that felt they had the war won, and that is how the "stab in the back" came about. It wasn't just some political ploy to win votes, the reperations germany had to pay were real, the loss of territory was real... the Germans were winning the war.. you starting to get the picture yet? you don't need to read a book to see that the stab in the back was not imaginary. Anyway, I'm not changing your mind anytime soon, you seem to have your head stuck in some history book and believe everything you read. Happy wargaming to you, bye,
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: billyjj

But it seems to me there were an awful lot of people in Germany during that time (Generals included) that felt they had the war won...

No, they thought that they had not lost the war. And that's completely different. The Germans would have lost a few months later though, or they could have fought the hopeless "last-man-standing" fight Hitler fought 1944-1945. Losing was inevitable.
, and that is how the "stab in the back" came about. It wasn't just some political ploy to win votes,

The myth of the stab in the back was created to bind and use all the different resentments and use them for their course.
... the reperations germany had to pay were real, the loss of territory was real...
No doubt.
the Germans were winning the war

Nonsense.
...you seem to have your head stuck in some history book and believe everything you read.

Read some history books some time. History channel will be sufficient as a start.[:)]

Cheers
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
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ezzler
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by ezzler »

What a crock.
Rarely have so many made up theories been attempted to be supported by selective facts.

Just a few..
The talks between allies in 1912 were BECAUSE of Imperial Germany's increasingly worrying and belligerent building up of its military. To compare Imperial Germany's continental army to the Royal navies worldwide force is disingenuous to say the least. The dreadnought race came from Tirpitz and the Kaiser himself. And they lost it.
In almost the same way that the USSR could not win the arms race with the west if it wanted to feed its people at the same time.
Great Britain and France were Superpowers. Imperial Germany was not.

The bankers theory doesn't hold water even to the end of the page. Its as silly as saying 9/11 was planned to get the Usa into Iraq for oil. - By destroying their own financial district, collapsing the Dow, killing thousands and costing millions of millions in clear up alone and declaring war on the impoverished Afghanistan just to throw voters of the real scent.
Dreadnought: Britain,Germany and the Coming of the Great War by Massie
Is an excellent one {two if you want the naval war} volume book on the coming of the great war.

Mud Blood and Poppycock does a good job of explaining exactly how defeated the Imperial German army was by September 1918. On 29 September, Haig launched the main attack on the Hindenburg Line by the British 4th army. By 5 October, the British Fourth Army had broken through the entire depth of the Hindenburg defences.

Honestly.




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Randomizer
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by Randomizer »

Not at all.
Not by today's standards perhaps but in 1914, the number of functional democracies was very small. If you choose not to include constitutional monarchies as democracies, that's your call but I would argue that they passed the acid test of the day.
The SPD even opposed his reforms (which were in fact parts of their demands) and voted against them in the Reichstag, just to stick to their strict fundamental opposition, aiming for ground-breaking structural reforms. The living standard and wealth of workers increased each year during his regency, but the workers did not get the impression that they were respected/accepted members of the society.
This is the essence of constitutional democracy, the elected representives limiting the authority of the crowned head of state. Seems pretty democratic to me even if the franchise was limited to men only. Germany actually had a universal male franchise before Britain who into the 20th Century limited the vote to males earning more than a certain annual income.
Censorship in Germany (newspapers, public speeches, etc.) was still in place until 1918
Irrelevant, everybody had censorship and while the Press might have had more freedoms in pre-war Britain, the draconian censorship put into effect after the War started equalled or exceeded anything in Germany. The British (and even more so the French) restricted press access to the front far more than the Germans and in the Reich, a photographer would not be jailed for publishing a photo of a dead German soldier although publishing pictures of dead British soldiers was punishable by imprisonment. Press pools and the military controlling imbedded reporters is nothing new, everybody did it in the Great War.

The Kaiser's army had always been portrayed as goose-stepping automatons and the essence of brutal mindless discipline but one should ask why the free democratic army of the British Empire numbering some 7,000,000 would find it necessary to shoot some 300+ of their own soldiers from 1914 through 1918 whereas the 11,000,000+ jack-booted proto-Nazis of the Kaiser executed a mere fraction of that number. When it comes to the World War One I strongly suspect that all was not exactly what we have come to believe.
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by Hokum »

e Germans were winning the war.. you starting to get the picture yet? you don't need to read a book to see that the stab in the back was not imaginary


Sorry what?

Pick up a book, read about the Hundred Days, then come back.
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Randomizer
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by Randomizer »

@ezz
I have the Massie series, he tells a good tale but that's pretty much all it is. As for Mud, Blood and Poppycock, hyperbolic propaganda yet it sits on my bookshelf beside The Great War Generals, The Guns of August, Haig's Command and over 180 other books on the Great War. I haven't reached these conclusions just by haunting Internet forums and watching entirely superficial TV docs...
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by billyjj »

The Kaiser's army had always been portrayed as goose-stepping automatons and the essence of brutal mindless discipline but one should ask why the free democratic army of the British Empire numbering some 7,000,000 would find it necessary to shoot some 300+ of their own soldiers from 1914 through 1918 whereas the 11,000,000+ jack-booted proto-Nazis of the Kaiser executed a mere fraction of that number. When it comes to the World War One I strongly suspect that all was not exactly what we have come to believe.

I couldn't agree more with this.. WW1 is very strange, just the presence of this thread will tell you something is fishy. I don't see anyone making a thread about how WW2 started because WW2 got started because of WW1... so what happened, well put down the history books and take a look at the MONEY... believe it or not it was the bankers, its just as simple as that.. that is why everyone is scratching their heads here and can't figure it out because they are not thinking outside of the box. Just like the whole Napoleon at waterloo, same type of deal except this time they went in for the whole Europe not just England.
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Not by today's standards perhaps but in 1914, the number of functional democracies was very small. If you choose not to include constitutional monarchies as democracies...

First off, you said "liberal democracy", which triggered my post. Even by say 1912's standards (last elections were 1912 or 1913), the Kaiserreich was anything but a real constitutional monarchy. Bismarck was more liberal (until his change in 1878/79) than Wilhelm respectively his other Chancelors all together ever were.

Actually, the SPD wanted to get a real constitutional monarchy in 1918, they backed up Wilhelm to quite some extent, but they didn't have one and they didn't get one either, as the Allies insisted on Wilhelm's resignation.
This is the essence of constitutional democracy, the elected representives limiting the authority of the crowned head of state.
No, it just looks like it.

Wilhelm could veto whenever he wanted. The German Kaiser turned from a President of the German Confederation to the monarch of the Reich. The prominence of the Kaiser increased until around 1908, and decreased to some extent later on. Still, real parliamentarism (like in the UK) did not happen until after the November-revolution, and after the Kaiser was gone.
...why the free democratic army of the British Empire numbering some 7,000,000 would find it necessary to shoot some 300+ of their own soldiers from 1914 through 1918 whereas the 11,000,000+ jack-booted proto-Nazis of the Kaiser executed a mere fraction of that number. When it comes to the World War One I strongly suspect that all was not exactly what we have come to believe.

Germany court-martialed (and shot) soldiers as well. Especially after such events where German troops fraternized with the enemy, playing football with British soldiers in no man's land or singing x-mas songs, shaking hands, and exchanging presents. Superior commanders probably thought shooting a few would be sufficient to make an example, already, who knows. German morale was relatively (except for the generally low morale in late 1914 and early 1915) ok until mid 1918, and fear of reprisals/consequences surely helped where the morale wasn't sufficient. The troops were threatened with draconian punishments in 1915. I know that parts of the literature have this trend to display the German regime as rather friendly/humane.
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: billyjj

... so what happened, well put down the history books and take a look at the MONEY... believe it or not it was the bankers, its just as simple as that.. that is why everyone is scratching their heads here and can't figure it out because they are not thinking outside of the box. Just like the whole Napoleon at waterloo, same type of deal except this time they went in for the whole Europe not just England.
Warspite1

So putting your posts 32 and 48 together - are you saying that all bankers are Jewish?

Please can you explain how it was the bankers (if its as "simple as that") did what they did?
Which bankers are you talking about - German, American, British, Russian? Were they all acting together?
How did they achieve setting the conditions for WWI and getting the politicians to declare war?
How were they going to "take control" i.e. what was their end game?
Who stabbed who in the back? Why did they do that? Was that part of the plan?
How was this great plan going to end if all went as they had hoped?

BTW, what has all this got to do with Napoleon and Waterloo?




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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by Randomizer »

@Ezz.
I need to publically apologize for sounding like an arrogant fool in my post #46.  Although I fundamentally disagree with much of what both Massie and Corrigan have written, the fact that you have bothered to read them at all makes your opinion worthy of respect.  Cheers.
 
 
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: ezz

What a crock.
Rarely have so many made up theories been attempted to be supported by selective facts.

Just a few..
The talks between allies in 1912 were BECAUSE of Imperial Germany's increasingly worrying and belligerent building up of its military. To compare Imperial Germany's continental army to the Royal navies worldwide force is disingenuous to say the least. The dreadnought race came from Tirpitz and the Kaiser himself. And they lost it.
In almost the same way that the USSR could not win the arms race with the west if it wanted to feed its people at the same time.
Great Britain and France were Superpowers. Imperial Germany was not.

The bankers theory doesn't hold water even to the end of the page. Its as silly as saying 9/11 was planned to get the Usa into Iraq for oil. - By destroying their own financial district, collapsing the Dow, killing thousands and costing millions of millions in clear up alone and declaring war on the impoverished Afghanistan just to throw voters of the real scent.
Dreadnought: Britain,Germany and the Coming of the Great War by Massie
Is an excellent one {two if you want the naval war} volume book on the coming of the great war.

Mud Blood and Poppycock does a good job of explaining exactly how defeated the Imperial German army was by September 1918. On 29 September, Haig launched the main attack on the Hindenburg Line by the British 4th army. By 5 October, the British Fourth Army had broken through the entire depth of the Hindenburg defences.

Honestly.




Warspite1

Good post ezz.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
ezzler
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by ezzler »

Thankyou.
I should add that your post is very well written, insightful and well worthy of anyone's comment.
I just happen to disagree with parts of it. But that's what these forums are for after all.

For some other posters on here recently though ...I have a suggestion. Lack of blood sugar can make the body tired and thinking difficult so ..

1} Go to the local store and purchase a ready made meal that can be heated or microwaved. The walk there and back will help to clear the head.
2} Remove packaging.
3} Heat meal as directed and consume rapidly while warm. The energy this produces will have a beneficial effect on the brain.
4} Eat sitting down but upright, in good surroundings to aid digestion and engender a feeling of comfort and calm.
5} Having eaten take the packaging and carefully peel the tinfoil from the tray.
6}Put tinfoil on head to prevent government stealing your thoughts.
7}Go to bed.
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by morvwilson »

Who started WW1?
The root cause I think is the friction between the Serbs and Austrians.
Around 1908 Austria took over Bosnia and Herzgovina from the receeding Turkish empire. These were former Serbian provences and the Serbs wanted them back.
The Serbian government at the time was a Monarchy, but the civillian side of the government had no control of the military side. The military side put together the Black Hand group inside Bosnia with the intent to assassinate an Austrian official (the head of this group was Rade Babliovic i think). They first thought to take out the governer of Bosnia, but when they found out that the Archduke Franz Ferdinand would be there, it was decided he would be the target. The meeting for this decission was actually held in a hotel in Toulouse France (possible Frence involvement?).
The Serbian involvment was discovered befor the ultimatum was issued to Serbia, since the assassins were caught and questioned.
This is where things started to get out of hand. The Serbs actually agreed to do all the Austrian ultimatum demanded except for one point. But even though the civillian side agreed, they could not force the military side to do so. So, the Austrians decided to march.
This triggered the secret Serbian/Russian alliance, which set off the German/Austrian allaince, which opened the door to the French to try to get Alsace and Loraine back from Germany. The British did not enter until the Germans hit Belgium.

Hope this helps you.
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by Dixie »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: billyjj

The Jews started WW1 in order to financially ruin Europe so that they could grab control, the plan pretty much worked and this is what pissed of the Germans and gave rise to Hitler, the so called "stab in the back" at the peace negotiations. Sorry if this sounds like anti-semitism but its the truth.
Warspite1

I don`t believe I just read that.......

Me neither. Good grief, the stuff some people come out with. [X(]
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by GrumpyMel »

I pretty much blame the Serbian millitary for starting it. Support for terrorism and political assasinations is not an acceptable way for resolving territorial disputes. I can't really say I blame Austria-Hungary much for not trusting the Serbs to conduct a fair investigation at that point.

Now in terms of laying the ground work for creating the conditions that led for it to be a World War instead of an isolated incident...and for failing to put the breaks on it before it got out of control....yeah there is plenty of blame to spread around.

It's probably true that if that particular match had not come along to ignite the powder-keg another one would have eventualy. However if we are talking about who to blame for literaly "starting it".....I would have to lay that at the doorstep of the Serbian millitary and thier clandestine support of the Black Hand.
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RE: Whose to blame for starting WWI?

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: billyjj
The Jews started WW1 in order to financially ruin Europe so that they could grab control, the plan pretty much worked and this is what pissed of the Germans and gave rise to Hitler, the so called "stab in the back" at the peace negotiations. Sorry if this sounds like anti-semitism but its the truth.

Locking this thread, thanks to "billyjj". Billy, you may want to read some real history rather than whatever it is you think passes for it. If you post this kind of intellectually lazy, insulting and divisive commentary again, you will be banned from the forum. This is your warning and it's the only one you get - I'm not banning you immediately because as far as I know this is the first time you've done anything like this. We are here to share a common interest in wargaming, please stick to that.

If you want to discuss this further, please e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


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