Admiral Yamamoto's "What Might Have Been"

[John 3rd]

Once we wrap things up here on the development side I am going to start a new Thread here in the Mod Section entitled "The Reluctant Admiral."  The Thread's purpose will be to see the creation of a Mod from vision to brass tacks.  It ought to be interesting as I fear biting off FAR more then I can chew, however, as see it as a great opportunity for being used as a learning tool.
 
I just did a hard copy of all eight pages of this thread so I can collate everything we've settled on for the Mod.  Want to have it in a notebook for easy reference as we progress through the creation process.
 

[John 3rd]

This is the last posting from BK on the subject of our CV-Capable Zeros. Please take a look and see if there are any issues that need to be talked about:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Just some edits on this as i dont think its reasonable to have a super charger on the Kinsei when its introduced. Complete naval outline.

Interceptor Path
A6M3  42/2 All Jack sentai become A6M3

A6M3a 42/6

A6M3b 42/5;
Altitude 37000
Max speed 341
Cruise 240
Endurance 270 ( compare to 450 for a A6m3A)
Climb 2870
Armour 1 , Dur 25.
2  Nose 7.7mm , 2* 20mm ( dropped the extra 12.7 in favour of protection and balance)
Max load 441
Maneuver as A6M3A
1 * 150L Drop tank for redeployment.
1 * 30kg bomb
A6M3A internal fuel tank was 570 L , we reduce this by 230L to 370L 40%.
We Increase armour by 110kg
Overall weight is reduced by  150kg drop tank , 230kg fuel = 380kg (more if it takes of with bombs) and we spend 110kg
= 270kg or ~10%-15% lighter.
I have conservatively increased speed by 1.5% , climb by 6% and max altitude by 0.5% to reflect this.


A6M4 43/1(Compared to A6M8 with same engine)
Carrier capable
Altitude 38075 (+1000)
Max Speed :358 (+2)
Climb 2970 (+3%)
Cruise 230
Endurance 270 ( -15)
Armour 1 , Dur 27.
2 * 12.7mm , 2* 20mm
Max Load 441 (-600)
Maneuver ? but high altitude should be significantly worse ( eg more like zero)

A6M4i 43/8
Upgrade 20mm to Type 2 30mm Cannon.

A6M8i 43/12
as A6M4i but add supercharger Maneuver should have decent high altitude

J7 3 months earlier

Fighter path
A6M5 42/10 ( no futher varients)
A6M8 62  43/6 ( note this is different from the A6M8 in the game)
A7A0  44/2 as A7 but Kinsei 62 engine. Also replace the George .
A7A1 as historical but 1 month earlier.

[John 3rd]

This is FatR final proposal. Things are not too far apart. I simply want them next to each other so we can settle on this subject:

ORIGINAL: FatR

But just because I can:

The carrier fighter line (conservative, emphazis on mass production)
A6M2
->A6M5 (42/10, no changes)
->A6M5b (43/3, no changes)
->A6M8 (43/8, +1 hex to all ranges, max speed around 365, reflecting the overall design polish and improvements to the Kinsei engine, otherwise no changes)

Then there is a major point of divergence, depending on whether Navy basically just listens to Horikoshi in early 1943 and accepts his line of thought that a heavier fighter is absolutely necessary; decides that Zero cannot be effectively replaced in production by A7M and sticks with this decision until the deteriorating situation forces them to grasp at straws; or forces Mitshubishi to build a new fighter around another engine early on. The third scenario, assuming it can work, is covered by bklooste. In the second scenario A7M is available as in vanilla. A6M9 appears on 44/6. It features further small improvements across the board, except in range and gun armament. In the first scenario, assuming it can work, there are no further improvements to Zero, but A7M is advanced to about 45/1. (But you're still stuck with a very small A7M factory and need to spend a ton of everything to mass produce it.) Also, other planes that use MK9 can arrive earlier.


The land-based fighter line (faster adoption of designs conceptually different from A6M2):
A6M3 (42/2; has type 99-2 cannons, otherwise as in vanilla). All Jack kokutais use models from it, appropriate for their time of arrival. Land-based units can convert to them.
-> A6M3b (42/5, as described by bklooste in the post #218)
-> A6M4 (43/1; as described by bklooste in the post #218, except not carrier-capable and with 13.2 Navy MGs)))
-> A6M4i (43/7; 20mm cannons are replaced with 30mm)

Then there is the point of divergence based on the decision above. In the second scenario, there is probably a strong drive to develop heavy-armed Zeros, so A6M8i and A6M9i with 30mm armament and better high-altitude performance, but worse overall performance, smaller range and no ability to fly from carriers become available in time. In the first scenario, the factory just upgrades to A6M8, if the player allows.

George can be slightly accelerated in either scenario. In the first scenario N1K5-J becomes available at least half a year later

[John 3rd]

I've spent the last couple of hours finalizing the decisions made within the Naval Construction side of this Mod.  I've got the ships, names, layout, and operational dates all settled so this is solid progress on the Research front.
 
Will probably use that information as the first post in the new Thread. 
 
Final Organization:
3 Shokaku-Class CVs (1 replaces the Taiho)
2 Kawachi-Class BCs
2 Tone-Class Scout Cruisers
The Oyodo-Class simply becomes two more Agano-Class CL
22 DDs:
--6 Additional Moon-Class
--16 Additional Yugumo-Class 
 
We get the Fighter Lines finished then we can move to creating the actual Mod.
 

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

For the Land-Based IJN Fighter Force, this is the last Post:

[blockquote]quote:



The land-based fighter line (faster adoption of designs conceptually different from A6M2):
A6M3 (42/2; has type 99-2 cannons, otherwise as in vanilla). All Jack kokutais use models from it, appropriate for their time of arrival. Land-based units can convert to them.
-> A6M3b (42/5, as described by bklooste in the post #218)
-> A6M4 (43/1; as described by bklooste in the post #218, except not carrier-capable and with 13.2 Navy MGs)))
-> A6M4i (43/7; 20mm cannons are replaced with 30mm)

Then there is the point of divergence based on the decision above. In the second scenario, there is probably a strong drive to develop heavy-armed Zeros, so A6M8i and A6M9i with 30mm armament and better high-altitude performance, but worse overall performance, smaller range and no ability to fly from carriers become available in time. In the first scenario, the factory just upgrades to A6M8, if the player allows.

George can be slightly accelerated in either scenario. In the first scenario N1K5-J becomes available at least half a year later
[/blockquote]


No real disagreements either you can make them carrier based if not carrier based i would bump performance a smidgen due to fixed wings , faster roll and lighter under carriage. I also pasted updated stats on this page.

This seems pretty fair to me.  We've seen stats from BK's work in this area and they seem to be pretty much agreed upon.  BK--Could we see them in ONE Posting again for any form of comments and, most importantly, FINAL tweaking? 

QUESTIONS:
1.  Which Factories will follow this upgrade path?  I assume it should be the M3 Factories...
2.  What is a reasonable timeframe for a slight advancement with Mister George?
3.  Lets settle on the final tweaking of the Stats from BK's work.

Will put a last post in once we decide on the options

1. A7 with dif engine ( Unlikely)
2. Last George comes in earlier , More refined zero , Significant plane dev resources available for Mitsubishi bombers ( since they dont have the Mabel that means the Betty).
3. Other plane lets use the 1508 hp Frank as Navy plane with SR 1

Note in option 2 he only suggested the last George model (45) , even this is pushing it. The George suffered low production NOT imho because it was not adopted or had enoguh resources but the egine which it used like every other late war advanced Japanese fighter. This can be clearly seen in the single figure production numbers for like 10 month after it was ordered.

[John 3rd]

BK:

I like bringing in the George a little early. Cannot be TOO much. What do you advise--considering the engine issues--for a deployment date?

Concur on the Mitsubishi Bombers gaining much valuable attention. Should be able to move the dates up some there as well. Makes perfect sense if the design team is essentially 'finished' with the Zero airframe. They become available to help in research and development of other aircraft.

Am slightly confused on your 3rd point. What do you mean by SR 1?

As a thought, what if we leave the final model decisions to the player of the Japanese side. Perhaps he'll like one of the more obscure late-war (1945) planes and try to push them into production. After all--as FatR said--the Japanese could mass produce their more refined Zero choices and line to stay competitive through early-1944. After that...

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am slightly confused on your 3rd point. What do you mean by SR 1?

Service Rating 1. To be honest there isnt too much of a difference between 1 and 2, the main thing I notice with 2's is that after switching the group to the new aircraft, it takes a little longer (3-4 days vs 1-2) for them to get operational,

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

For the Land-Based IJN Fighter Force, this is the last Post:

[blockquote]quote:



The land-based fighter line (faster adoption of designs conceptually different from A6M2):
A6M3 (42/2; has type 99-2 cannons, otherwise as in vanilla). All Jack kokutais use models from it, appropriate for their time of arrival. Land-based units can convert to them.
-> A6M3b (42/5, as described by bklooste in the post #218)
-> A6M4 (43/1; as described by bklooste in the post #218, except not carrier-capable and with 13.2 Navy MGs)))
-> A6M4i (43/7; 20mm cannons are replaced with 30mm)

Then there is the point of divergence based on the decision above. In the second scenario, there is probably a strong drive to develop heavy-armed Zeros, so A6M8i and A6M9i with 30mm armament and better high-altitude performance, but worse overall performance, smaller range and no ability to fly from carriers become available in time. In the first scenario, the factory just upgrades to A6M8, if the player allows.

George can be slightly accelerated in either scenario. In the first scenario N1K5-J becomes available at least half a year later
[/blockquote]


No real disagreements either you can make them carrier based if not carrier based i would bump performance a smidgen due to fixed wings , faster roll and lighter under carriage. I also pasted updated stats on this page.

This seems pretty fair to me.  We've seen stats from BK's work in this area and they seem to be pretty much agreed upon.  BK--Could we see them in ONE Posting again for any form of comments and, most importantly, FINAL tweaking? 

QUESTIONS:
1.  Which Factories will follow this upgrade path?  I assume it should be the M3 Factories...

Of course.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2.  What is a reasonable timeframe for a slight advancement with Mister George?

1-3 months assuming the combination of greated focus of Kawasaki and slightly better overall state of Japan mid-war. Players still will have the problem of sluggish production to deal with. 6 months for N1K5, but only if A7M is pushed forward.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
1. Do we simply set the factories to auto-upgrade along the M2--M5--M5b--M8 Line?

Yes, automatic upgrades are very important in the terms of saving HI and supply.

[John 3rd]

We do the auto upgrades for the chosen models and ignore the deadends.

George will go as described.

When do we think the A7 can arrive?

JUAN: Thanks for the clarification. Didn't even click until you mentioned it! DUH!

BK---When you get the time could you post the final tweaks on all aircraft. I would like it to be in a post per aircraft that way people can query and discuss them on a plane-by-plane basis. This is for the end game so if people don't comment and/or toss out differing ideas then we go with what is settled for the Mod.

I'm out for part of the day attending the Denver March (Native) Pow-Wow. Will log back on and see what we've got when I get home. As always---thanks for all the work!

BANZAI!!!

[PaxMondo]

Curious, have you considered naval radar upgrades and timing?  My readings on this would suggest a couple of things.

1. the current game has the historical upgrades.  However, these are not very  much related to the dates that the devices were available.  T-21 and T-22 were both available by 4/42 and the T-13 by 3/43.  Actual installations happened as they could based upon shipyard availability and ship types.  Meaning the course of the war GREATLY determined when these upgrades happened.

2. all three models underwent a number, almost continuous upgrades.  The game represents more or less end of war performance on the sets.  You could easily and arbitrarily set an annual version of each set and increase it's performance.  Ex, Type 22 is loaded with 60% accuracy.  Early sets were not nearly that good.  That is '45 capability.  Call '42 = 30%, '43=40%, '44=50% and allow for annual upgrades.  This would be much closer to what was the truth.  Up to the player when he puts the ship in for upgrade.  If he is doing well, this can be done early.  If he has a Midway, then as historic, he won't be able to.  He'll be scrambling for every ship everywhere.

[John 3rd]

Pax---Thanks for the thoughts. I am basing everything off of what I've read regarding Adm Yamamoto and decisions he TRIED to get through but failed. Will take a look but he was so involved in aeronautics, I doubt if he did much in the radar area, however, I will do a re-read of my sources. This is convenient since I've been wanting to do this anyway as we get ready to move into the brass tacks of the Mod creation. Also agree with your summary of the Japanese radar starting as it finished NOT as it was originally created.

The game has come so far from WitP but there is always room for improvement. Every solution and/or change brings about a host of new issues.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The game has come so far from WitP but there is always room for improvement. Every solution and/or change brings about a host of new issues.

For me, I think of it as giving the JAP player more strategic choices. More flexibility to adapt as the war goes.

In my personal mod, I have added HUNDREDS of ships, mostly small SC, E, DD, and AUX types. Far more than could ever be built either historically or in game. Most of them get halted. The reason to add them though is that it allows the JAP player to decide what he needs/wants depending upon how the war is going.

It makes no sense that if you need more To'su for ACM of PB that you are limited in that. Historically, we know what happened. BUT, given the finite resources (defined in game as HI), there is no reason that you couldn't build 5 or 10 more pretty much whenever you wished to allocate the resources to do so. They were small ships, it was just a question of priority.

Same with the radar. I have modded most of the ship classes to get it based upon when it was available, not historically done. And I have added in the incremental advancements.

Midway and Coral Sea outcomes dictated SO much for IJN. However, in many games this doesn't happen or the opposite result ocurrs or it happens in '43. The String, jrcar, cuttlefish, and solli AAR's amoung others show the range of plausible outcomes in my mind.

My testing so far pretty much meets my expectations. If you have a Midway outcome, all your upgrades get pushed out, you have to really accelerate your CV's, and little esle can get built just as historical. However, if you can keep the KB whole until mid'43 or later, then you can focus on upgrades and ASW far more. You also do not have to convert all of your cruiser hulls to CV's, but can get another couple of Mogami's if you wish. Or not (I usually still go for the Unryu's, but I have added 4 Mogami if you wish to go that route). Bottom line though is that you are able to extract much more from the SRA. Very historical strategy outcomes. As Solli has stated in his AAR, each month of SRA extraction is a very big deal to Japan's economy.

Yamamoto realized force preservation was key. That the Allied intel was so MUCH better to allow them to meet him in Coral Sea and Midway with near equal (Midway) or better (Coral Sea) forces was really unexpected. In hindsight, the Coral Sea outcome should have raised far more alarm than it did to him. It got passed off as luck, instead of trying to understand how the allies had forces at the right place and right time to thwart the Port Moresby operation. Sorry, I digress ...

This is great work. The a/c lines you are creating look highly plausible. I wouldn't hestitate to obviate the IJN/IJA animosity. Is it a stretch? Incredibly large. So what. The premise is that Yamamoto is in the drivers seat. Let him take the Ho-5 and use it on IJN planes. Better weapon.



Even more than that though. Use the M2 50 cal as your benchmark. Again, game performance is clearly end of war. Early war M2 had frequent jamming issues. There were hundreds of tweaks to the design that ended up making this the benchmark medium MG worldwide. Why? It was used everywhere by all services. Thousands were built and used. Advantage of standardization. Applying this to the Ho-5, as good as it was, if it is standardized across the IJA/IJN, then its performance as measured by accuracy goes up from the game values. The in game numbers become the 43 numbers. Add a few points to accuracy for 44 and 45. Maybe a point to effect (better munition)

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

We do the auto upgrades for the chosen models and ignore the deadends.

George will go as described.

When do we think the A7 can arrive?

Assuming the scenario where it is the focus of efforts from 1943, MK9 is used from the beginning and MK9 actually works as supposed? I'd pick 44/11.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
1. Do we simply set the factories to auto-upgrade along the M2--M5--M5b--M8 Line?

Yes, automatic upgrades are very important in the terms of saving HI and supply.

[/quote]

There is another option i like here. That is one of the main reasons for the Kinsei engine was due to limitations of the Sakei. This suggest that we could make the M8 line available earlier but with no free upgrades. The player chooses either to stick with the M5 for longer and has a production saving or he changes the factories. Note im not suggesting this for the air frames but more the engines eg the Kinsei engine production has to be manually built up after its free start. Will this work eg can you get a factory not to upgrade ( because not enough Kinsei engines are available since they are also used in the A6M4) ?

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

We do the auto upgrades for the chosen models and ignore the deadends.

George will go as described.

When do we think the A7 can arrive?

JUAN: Thanks for the clarification. Didn't even click until you mentioned it! DUH!

BK---When you get the time could you post the final tweaks on all aircraft. I would like it to be in a post per aircraft that way people can query and discuss them on a plane-by-plane basis. This is for the end game so if people don't comment and/or toss out differing ideas then we go with what is settled for the Mod.

I'm out for part of the day attending the Denver March (Native) Pow-Wow. Will log back on and see what we've got when I get home. As always---thanks for all the work!

BANZAI!!!

[/quote]

A bit later today..

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo






This is great work. The a/c lines you are creating look highly plausible. I wouldn't hestitate to obviate the IJN/IJA animosity. Is it a stretch? Incredibly large. So what. The premise is that Yamamoto is in the drivers seat. Let him take the Ho-5 and use it on IJN planes. Better weapon.



Even more than that though. Use the M2 50 cal as your benchmark. Again, game performance is clearly end of war. Early war M2 had frequent jamming issues. There were hundreds of tweaks to the design that ended up making this the benchmark medium MG worldwide. Why? It was used everywhere by all services. Thousands were built and used. Advantage of standardization. Applying this to the Ho-5, as good as it was, if it is standardized across the IJA/IJN, then its performance as measured by accuracy goes up from the game values. The in game numbers become the 43 numbers. Add a few points to accuracy for 44 and 45. Maybe a point to effect (better munition)

I favour this but it needs to be a mod with greater IJA and IJN co-operation which we have seen no indicator for so far.

[bklooste]

Ok Lets finalize this going for a more refined design and the George over the A7 or a new design.

Firstly both the George and the A7 needed high power engines which Japan has a LOT of difficulties with the main reason for the problems ( which also included the issues with the Hien) were lack of high Octane fuel and even maintaining the Octane rating on their fuel.

Ok so get some German Engineers or pay AG Fabergen and get the large scale Fisher Tropish plant in Manchuria to produce 100/130 Octane fuel and blend it. ( It was built histroically but failled unlike the German plants there was even a pre war contract in 44 a contract was made but it was too little too late)   . Add 20 Oil to Anshun Manchuria. 

Without this  you are seriously pushing any argument for accelerating any Japanese plane with an engine >1600 hp no matter how many people are dedicated to it ( and its the engine not the flight team thats the lmitations.

Go with the times for FatR
All George models come in 2 months earlier , 6 months for N1K5.
Go for the more reliable A7M2  with the Ha-43 and lets say 44/11.


Will cover this in more detail.. with plants etc.

[bklooste]

John what about the idea of a modified 5th Cirlcle which can only be built as per HR when 3 CVs are lost .

[bklooste]

Interceptor Path
A6M3  42/2 All Jack sentai become A6M3 ( as historical)

A6M3a 42/6

A6M3b 42/5;
Altitude 37000
Max speed 341
Cruise 240
Endurance 270 ( compare to 450 for a A6m3A)
Climb 2870
Armour 1 , Dur 25.
2  Nose 7.7mm , 2* 20mm ( dropped the extra 12.7 in favour of protection and balance)
Max load 441
Maneuver as A6M3A
34/34/34/28/22
1 * 150L Drop tank for redeployment.
1 * 30kg bomb
A6M3A internal fuel tank was 570 L , we reduce this by 230L to 370L 40%.
We Increase armour by 110kg
Overall weight is reduced by  150kg drop tank , 230kg fuel = 380kg (more if it takes of with bombs) and we spend 110kg
= 270kg or ~10%-15% lighter.
I have conservatively increased speed by 1.5% , climb by 6% and max altitude by 0.5% to reflect this.


A6M4 43/1(Compared to A6M8 with same engine)
Carrier capable
Altitude 38075 (+1000)
Max Speed :358 (+2)
Climb 2970 (+3%)
Cruise 230
Endurance 270 ( -15)
Armour 1 , Dur 27.
2 * 12.7mm , 2* 20mm
Max Load 441 (-600)
Maneuver:  30/30/30/18/11 ( No super charger)


A6M4i 43/8
Maneuver:  30/30/30/23/17
Upgrade 20mm to Type 2 30mm Cannon.

A6M4i upgrades to A6M8 and the A6M8i ( to cover A6M3 path)

A6M8i 43/12
+ 2 Dur. 
Maneuver:  31/31/31/25/19
A6M8i upgrades to the J7

J7 Shinden avilable 5/45 this plane would greatly benefit from work

Factories.
All J2 factories become Zero and upgrade automatically when available A6M3 -> A6M3 -> A6m3i -> A6m4 ->a6m8i .

The  Factories producing some Mitsubishi Ha-32 for the Jack are converted to Nakajima Ha-34 Just move some numbers over.
43/1  Nakajima Ha-33  factory for Dinah ( and A6M4)  is increased by 20.

Note im deliberately creating a shortage of this engine to encourage more M5 for efficiency reasons

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

John what about the idea of a modified 5th Cirlcle which can only be built as per HR when 3 CVs are lost .

I agree to that thinking, however, how would you Mod that. Should you place all CVs after the 3 Shos on 'do not build' or whatever until you've lost several or do you simply keep them frozen until a given date and then allow for construction?