Alaska Question

[JWE]

We are not particularly happy with the whole Base Force thing, so decided to totally redo it. There will be BFs, but those that are tagged to “home” bases will be permanent restricted. The 977 BF units are gone. Mobile Air BFs are now replaced by Group/Wing (or whatever) units. Mobile Naval BFs will be limited and strictly according to Hoyle – For the US, there was 4 big Lion types, and 12 medium Cub types that were activated and deployed, and that was it, that’s all you get.

There’s tons of independent Bns that function, in combination, like a BF (sorta), just like they did. The mobile stuff is mobile and deployable (both sides), while BFs are not. There used to be about 1000 BFs and 700 more support units, that have been cut to less than half the total, for all nations. Your ops are going to be seriously impacted, unless you understand the concept of ‘aggregate forward motion’.

[JWE]

But enough of the gas, here’s the question. On opening day, Alaska didn’t have doo doo as base support. There was some big towns that had a Naval presence, but from what we can determine, it was fuel docks, some light maintenance, maybe some ammo storage, but basically squat. Alaska was the Northern Sea Frontier, part of 13th Naval District, out of Seattle, and got bubkis. Alaska was built up by a vast infusion of those independent Bns described above.

Ok, so how do we define Alaska on opening day ? Not really interested in places with a short Army company and some rescue boats. Looking for places with an “established” military presence. Any info on such presence will be gratefully appreciated.

[Blackhorse]

When the balloon went up, the USN "owned" Kodiak as its primary base for ships in Alaska, and plans were in motion to build up Dutch Harbor while the Army simultaneously built airfields to defend DH on nearby Unalaska, and at Cold Harbor.

There were a few other naval installations -- Sitka, primarily -- but for seaplanes, not ships. The Army's primary bases were in and around Anchorage, and they increased the port defenses there and at Seward, but I am not aware of any naval facilities.

[JWE]

Hi Joel,
Thanks to your original work and some very helpful assistance provided by Bucky the Beach, I think we now have a very good understanding of the state of facilities at Kodiak, Sitka, Dutch Harbor on opening day, and their evolution into NOBs, with identified facilities substantially complete by Jan. 1, ’43 (except for some permanent 6” emplacements). Got a good handle on the CstArty, EABs, SeaBees, Special SeaBees, etc and who went where and did what to whom; even the Port Maintenance Bns.

Just wait till you see what we have done with BFs ! Set up Naval District HQs, that various bases report in to. Bases are a various mix of NOBs, NB, NSYs, NASs, where all the goodies reside. We even found a way to model USCG Station components with USAAC base group detachments, like Ketchikan/Annette. They are all forever restricted and forever permanent, but grow and evolve over time. However, much of the actual physical base makeup will have to be through deployment of mobile battalions (of this and that), as was actually done.

Boy, the group is having some serious fun, now !

Hope this posts. I’m on a laptop in a place where a horse is still a primary means of transportation. What’s even weirder is they all have SatCom phone links at half the price of a US Ma Bell landline. What’s wrong with this picture?

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JWE

We even found a way to model USCG Station components with USAAC base group detachments, like Ketchikan/Annette.

I put my District USCG Base at a Base I created one space north of Annette at 197-41. I did this rather than combine them, to preserve the airfield being off on the island and a separate command. Distance wise it is close enough to RL.

Buck

[JWE]

Exactly what we were thinking of, Buck. Although Bremerton is only 15 or so km from Seattle, it is across the Sound. Fortunately, Andrew's map puts the hex divider right in the middle of the gut. So, Seattle is in one hex (on the leftish side), and Bremerton is in another hex (on the rightish side). Even more fortunately, the map road network supports this perfectly. Bremerton should be off route 16 from Tacoma, rather than off 518 to Seattle. Serendipity rears her ugly head once again.

We nerfed the crap out of Seattle (in an operational sense), and moved all the goodies to Bremerton.

As to Ketchikan/Annette, we didn't split base hexes, there wasn't enuf map infrastructure to support the requirements (and we are slot limited, because we have to do this for every stinking Nation, out there), but we differentiated by USN(USCG) station and USAAC Sqn detachments.

Good to hear from ya Buck.

[JWE]

Well, MO comes through yet again. Everything we ever wanted to know about Alaska permanent base defense establishments and facilities, and their evolution over time. Data from original USArmy documents (lots of those included, as well). There’s a ton more links, but they are all accessible from these.
http://www.sitkaww2.com/
http://www.sdphotos.org/ca/kodiak/edoc/44annex.html
http://kadiak.org/
http://www.northamericanforts.com/West/ak3.html
Brother MO even contacted our players at USNB San Diego and got complement/capability data for NASs and Naval Operating Bases. Woof !!!

[Whisper]

When is this stuff coming to a theater near us JWE? We are patient, but we are not dead. Anything you have or anything Mike can give us would help a lot. Capt. Delaroa is calling for a 1942 Gulf of Alaska CPX, and Maj. Faustini is all over it. Don't forget your friends.

[Central Blue]

ORIGINAL: JWE

We are not particularly happy with the whole Base Force thing, so decided to totally redo it. There will be BFs, but those that are tagged to “home” bases will be permanent restricted. The 977 BF units are gone. Mobile Air BFs are now replaced by Group/Wing (or whatever) units. Mobile Naval BFs will be limited and strictly according to Hoyle – For the US, there was 4 big Lion types, and 12 medium Cub types that were activated and deployed, and that was it, that’s all you get.

There’s tons of independent Bns that function, in combination, like a BF (sorta), just like they did. The mobile stuff is mobile and deployable (both sides), while BFs are not. There used to be about 1000 BFs and 700 more support units, that have been cut to less than half the total, for all nations. Your ops are going to be seriously impacted, unless you understand the concept of ‘aggregate forward motion’.

Most excellent. There are a a few good military histories on this at Ibiblio that should help folks get used to the historical pace of deployment for LIONS and CUBS -- even if we never understand "aggregate forward motion." [:D] How about ACORNS?

Any changes for the Bay Area? Or did we lose out to the Pendleton -- Bremerton gang?

Info from Alaska implies a lot of one off installations for coast defense, etc. How crazy did you get?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
Most excellent. There are a a few good military histories on this at Ibiblio that should help folks get used to the historical pace of deployment for LIONS and CUBS -- even if we never understand "aggregate forward motion." [:D] How about ACORNS?

Yep. For mobile stuff, the Navy gots Fleet Advanced Bases (Lions), Port Advanced Bases (Cubs), Air Advanced Bases (Acorns), MAWs, MAGs, SeaBees, Special SeaBees, Base Maintenance Bns (port and air). Army and AAF gots Air Base Groups, Base Squadrons, EABs, Engr Port Bns, Engr Boat & Shore Bns. Everything one needs, just not in one package.

Any changes for the Bay Area? Or did we lose out to the Pendleton -- Bremerton gang?

Only changes in unit details. SFO hex includes Tiburon/Marin, Alameda hex includes San Jose/Moffett, so couldn’t do much with those because of how the map is drawn. Bremerton is there just because the map happened to be drawn in a way that allows it. If all the SeaBees show up at Port Hueneme, it’s only fair to have the Marines show up at Camp Pendleton. Besides, some of them might hurt me if I left it out.

Info from Alaska implies a lot of one off installations for coast defense, etc. How crazy did you get?

Not too crazy. Permanent CD installations in Sitka, Seward, Kodiak and Dutch harbor (start small, but evolve); the rest is mobile Cst Arty units. Then Sitka, Kodiak and DH with NASs evolving into NOBs. AAF gets a Base Group at Elmendorf, a growable Base Squadron at Ladd, and recoverable Base Detachments at Yakutat and Annette. Army has some (support only) facilities at Sitka, Seward, Dutch Harbor, Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Nome. Pretty much like it is already, just the details have been redefined.

[treespider]

I assume you already have this -

Bases in Alaska and the Aleutians

[JWE]

Yeppir, sure do. Thats where we confirmed some of the OOB data from.

Also had to some triage on CD gun devices. There was some 155s, allocated to CstArty and MarDefBns, that morphed in a particular way. But the MarDefBns and some mobile CstArty evolved into real live Arty units. So we had to add devices, so that some of the CD 155s serving as "Naval Guns" stay there, and some of the 155s that start out as "Naval Guns" upgrade to M1A1 155mm 10 mile snipers. So there's a bunch of units that have M1918 GPFs, but with different D numbers so they can go do different things.

We probably got too tangled up in our shorts on DH and Seward permanent CD installations. Makes more sense to schlepp in the CstArty units that actually did the deed. Only thing missing might be a couple 90mm anti-torpedo boat Btys, but what the hey. But don't forget, these are the permanent bases, that are forever static and restricted.

We also had to be careful with AvSup numbers because of the auto-growth factor. If unit is a BF, AvSup will slowly and eventually grow to 30x the Air size (max of 250). This isn't bad for the permanent bases, but plays havoc with the mobile BFs. Since we have AAF Base Groups and Base Sqdns, the bitch is how to keep a Base Sqdn from growing into a 9000lb gorilla. So we're looking at making AAF Base Groups and Base Sqdns as HQs, with range 1. That way they don't auto-grow. The (very few) actual mobile base forces will auto-grow, but they are so large to begin with, this should be a minimal push.

We are going slowly, since each tweak has several implications, but we are getting there. Should have a preview available shortly.

[Central Blue]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Central Blue
Most excellent. There are a a few good military histories on this at Ibiblio that should help folks get used to the historical pace of deployment for LIONS and CUBS -- even if we never understand "aggregate forward motion." [:D] How about ACORNS?

Yep. For mobile stuff, the Navy gots Fleet Advanced Bases (Lions), Port Advanced Bases (Cubs), Air Advanced Bases (Acorns), MAWs, MAGs, SeaBees, Special SeaBees, Base Maintenance Bns (port and air). Army and AAF gots Air Base Groups, Base Squadrons, EABs, Engr Port Bns, Engr Boat & Shore Bns. Everything one needs, just not in one package.

Any changes for the Bay Area? Or did we lose out to the Pendleton -- Bremerton gang?

Only changes in unit details. SFO hex includes Tiburon/Marin, Alameda hex includes San Jose/Moffett, so couldn’t do much with those because of how the map is drawn. Bremerton is there just because the map happened to be drawn in a way that allows it. If all the SeaBees show up at Port Hueneme, it’s only fair to have the Marines show up at Camp Pendleton. Besides, some of them might hurt me if I left it out.

Info from Alaska implies a lot of one off installations for coast defense, etc. How crazy did you get?

Not too crazy. Permanent CD installations in Sitka, Seward, Kodiak and Dutch harbor (start small, but evolve); the rest is mobile Cst Arty units. Then Sitka, Kodiak and DH with NASs evolving into NOBs. AAF gets a Base Group at Elmendorf, a growable Base Squadron at Ladd, and recoverable Base Detachments at Yakutat and Annette. Army has some (support only) facilities at Sitka, Seward, Dutch Harbor, Fairbanks, Anchorage, and Nome. Pretty much like it is already, just the details have been redefined.

Unit details (OOB) is what I should have said since I was angling for OOB details. Everything from the Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason and the Oakland Army Terminal to the Fourth Army and Naval District HQ's and the Benicia Arsenal that sold off Jeff Davis's camels.

The only quibble I have with the geography occupies the same level of importance as figuring out Bay Area refinery capacity -- the square labeled Alameda could just as easily be labeled Port Chicago, or Contra Costa County.

The Alameda Naval Air Station is firmly in the Frisco hex as is Hamilton Field. You can blow up that part of the game map and compare it to this from the NPS: http://www.nps.gov/history/nR/travel/ww ... a/maps.htm

The only thing in the hex currently labeled Alameda is Port Chicago and the refineries that aren't counted. They are all on the south shore of the river/straight near the rail. There is also some agriculture out that way to this day -- sweet corn as good as anything we ever bought in Iowa or Minnesota comes from Brentwood in the NW side of the "Alameda" hex. Right now we are getting asparagus.

I know this mod isn't about geography, but while I'm here....

Where's the Bay Bridge? In addition to the Bay Bridge, the ATSF RR terminated in Richmond, California, which is also in the Frisco hex of the map.

Well, I don't know if my geography complaints are chrome or worth a tick or two on movement costs.

I'm not complaining, or holding my breath, just tossing some stuff out there while I wait for this mod or the update to TOAW. [:)]

[JWE]

Hi, CB.
Can’t say I disagree. There’s some map things we would like to do as well, Bellingham fx. But messing with the map would change this from a nice little 900KB scenario mod into a 96MB go-rilla. Understand completely that Richmond, Mare Island, Marin, and even Sunnyvale, are technically in the SF hex. But you can only have one base per hex, so what to do? Iirc Alameda was, itself, a last minute addition because there was just too much stuff in the SF base and it needed to get spread around some.

Maybe some good grist for a phase-2 project, perhaps?

Lots of the base details and contents are abstracted. For example, we have Hamilton Field (AAF), 12th Naval District (USN), SF Bay Defenses (USA), and San Francisco Base (Joint) all in the SFO hex. Alameda hex has Alameda Base (USN) and Moffett Field (AAF). Mare Island has a NSY base and not much more.

We just aggregated everything Navy, everything Army, decided what should go into a HQ unit, like 12th NavDist, what goes into a CD unit, and what goes into a BF-type unit. That was fun, because BFs can grow AirSup to match Airfield size, while HQs can extend their influence. Lotta stuff to juggle.

[JWE]

Don't forget, too, that what you see is just bitmap graphics. The actual map is the hex definitions; hex terrain content, hex edge definitions, node-to-node transportation definitions, etc..

It's not hard to swag an alternative graphic for SFO/Alameda/Mare hexes that maintain the pwhex definitions, but might look a skoosh better. Here's one that I did off WPEH13; left side is what is now, right side is a maybe alternative. Pooched San Pablo Bay up so Mare Island is definitely in the MI hex, made the SF penninsula longer, more N/S, and shifted to the right a bit, so Alameda is definitely in the Alameda hex, San Jose is in the Alameda hex, dealers choice about Sunnyvale, and Richmond becomes distinctly non-denominational - SFO, MI, or Alameda; and so conforms to what we are doing with the various base definitions.

We have the visual in our heads when we do this stuff, but if it will float your boat a bit better, I can shoot you a modified WPEH13 and WPEN13. It's sloppy, and not up to Andrew's standards, but might give a better visualization of what's actually going on, yeah?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Don't forget, too, that what you see is just bitmap graphics. The actual map is the hex definitions; hex terrain content, hex edge definitions, node-to-node transportation definitions, etc..

It's not hard to swag an alternative graphic for SFO/Alameda/Mare hexes that maintain the pwhex definitions, but might look a skoosh better. Here's one that I did off WPEH13; left side is what is now, right side is a maybe alternative. Pooched San Pablo Bay up so Mare Island is definitely in the MI hex, made the SF penninsula longer, more N/S, and shifted to the right a bit, so Alameda is definitely in the Alameda hex, San Jose is in the Alameda hex, dealers choice about Sunnyvale, and Richmond becomes distinctly non-denominational - SFO, MI, or Alameda; and so conforms to what we are doing with the various base definitions.

We have the visual in our heads when we do this stuff, but if it will float your boat a bit better, I can shoot you a modified WPEH13 and WPEN13. It's sloppy, and not up to Andrew's standards, but might give a better visualization of what's actually going on, yeah?

Even without the map mod we could fudge it and make the base split. I know it would be wrong for Port Chicago (I was stationed there in the 60s) but would be reasonably close and would not require any map changes.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: JWE

Don't forget, too, that what you see is just bitmap graphics. The actual map is the hex definitions; hex terrain content, hex edge definitions, node-to-node transportation definitions, etc..

It's not hard to swag an alternative graphic for SFO/Alameda/Mare hexes that maintain the pwhex definitions, but might look a skoosh better. Here's one that I did off WPEH13; left side is what is now, right side is a maybe alternative. Pooched San Pablo Bay up so Mare Island is definitely in the MI hex, made the SF penninsula longer, more N/S, and shifted to the right a bit, so Alameda is definitely in the Alameda hex, San Jose is in the Alameda hex, dealers choice about Sunnyvale, and Richmond becomes distinctly non-denominational - SFO, MI, or Alameda; and so conforms to what we are doing with the various base definitions.

We have the visual in our heads when we do this stuff, but if it will float your boat a bit better, I can shoot you a modified WPEH13 and WPEN13. It's sloppy, and not up to Andrew's standards, but might give a better visualization of what's actually going on, yeah?

Even without the map mod we could fudge it and make the base split. I know it would be wrong for Port Chicago (I was stationed there in the 60s) but would be reasonably close and would not require any map changes.

There are four hexes in the area with four bases already, what are you suggesting? I am not following the reason such a change is wanted/needed.

[JWE]

Wasn't thinking about changing any data. Just wanted to show how pixels could be moved to position the Alameda graphic more into the Alameda hex.

Bases are still the same, and are still in the same place. Just the picture is a bit mo betta.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Wasn't thinking about changing any data. Just wanted to show how pixels could be moved to position the Alameda graphic more into the Alameda hex.

Bases are still the same, and are still in the same place. Just the picture is a bit mo betta.

I figured out your art. I was referring to Don's reference to Port Chicago and no map changes required. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't opposed to it, just didn't understand it.

While the current hex fudges the Alameda NAS a bit as Don said there is the Naval Ammunition Dump at Port Chicago and then Camp Stoneman just over the hill in Pittsburg (California that is), built early 1942.

I lived in Pittsburg in the mid-70's while working as a U.S. National Bank Examiner in downtown S.F.. Found out some 20 years later that my dad and great uncle were there in the spring of 1942 with the 32nd Division getting ready to be deployed to the So.Pacific. Pop had to have a leg operation for varicose veins and missed the deployment. He was sent to Angel Island where the USA Air Corps 8th Photo Squadron picked him up. Result was that Pop spent most of the war in Port Moresby in relative peace processing photos(including a couple of Australian R&Rs trying his damnest to make me mate little brother[X(]) and my uncle was up to his ass in Japanese and fighting them and malaria.

Way off topic, anyway what is painfully aware to me is this game needs an expansion (call it WITP AE ultimate) with 20 mile hexes to accommodate our needs.[:D]

[drw61]

I bet Andrew would love to do a 20 mile hex map for you! Should take no time at all.... [:D]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach


Way off topic, anyway what is painfully aware to me is this game needs an expansion (call it WITP AE ultimate) with 20 mile hexes to accommodate our needs.[:D]