dumb question: what's H2H??

[gorgias96]

Well then if the BR-350A was the mostly common ammunition used.... Can u say to me what kind of ammunition use the F-34 in 1943 when the BR-350A wasnt produced??

Maybe apples...... bananas perhaps ??

U can read this i say in battlefield.ru.....read the notes....

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by gorgias96
Well then if the BR-350A was the mostly common ammunition used.... Can u say to me what kind of ammunition use the F-34 in 1943 when the BR-350A wasnt produced??

Maybe apples...... bananas perhaps ??

U can read this i say in battlefield.ru.....read the notes....

As I said, if you have evidence of the BR-350B being used in later T-34/76 versions, you have a point there and if you had brought it up 4 month ago, it most likely would have made it into H2H OOBs in a special designed T-34...but to say the F-34 is underrated and the penetration for it is historically incorrect, is simply wrong...

I see that T-34m42 has a better ROF and a better fire control than T-34m41 … can you tell me why is this?
As long as I now m42 improvements over m41 were a new gear box (replacing m41 gear box that was very deficient) and some other minor ones like a rounded access port to the engine (m41 had a rectangular one).
Was any improvement in T-34m42 optical systems or something?
And why is the improvement in the ROF? I understand that there is such an improvement in T-34m43, since it had this bigger hexagonal turret … but m42 turret was the same than 41 … Is there other reason?

I'm not really sure, but it might be that different versions of the model 42 existed. This table shows the 42 with the hexagonal turret:

Russian Battlefield

The version in the Russian OOB is anyways a special one...it's uparmored...if it had the model 41 turret without additional armor, it would be the same in the game like the regular model 41 and otherwise it would be similar to the model 43...I think that's the reason why this exotic one made it into the OOB...

The reason why Germany and the US are usually modeled with most care is simply the fact, that it's easy to get good information on them - on German material even better then on US gear - just try to find something on the net...I would have loved to have a Russian with some knowledge on WWII working on better OOBs, but I don't know a single one...so US and German units are definetely modeled the best, although I tried to get rid of rare German units in the German OOB in H2H - you will not find the Maus or Sturmtiger available for normal purchase, along with many other things that got thrown out...it was one of the things I tried to care most of, to get more historical setups for German troops...

[Gallo Rojo]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo



Russian Battlefield

The version in the Russian OOB is anyways a special one...it's uparmored...if it had the model 41 turret without additional armor, it would be the same in the game like the regular model 41 and otherwise it would be similar to the model 43...I think that's the reason why this exotic one made it into the OOB...

The picture on Russian Battle field is a T-34m43 model, not a m42. That's by sure.
As far as I know, was m43 wich incorporated the hexagonal Turret(the one that is in the picture is an hexagonal turret). This hex turret had more internal space and a better internal lay out, so crew men could move confortabely and load the gun faster.

m42 had a variety of turrets, but all were similar in aspect. Diference were that there was a "soft edge" one and a "hard edge" one ... I think that one of those turrets was easy to produce and more endurable than the other one ... but I'm not sure ... What is sure is that the internal layout was similar to m41, so I don't know why there is an improvenment in ROF ...

Any way, forget about it ... is not really importan ... may be there are another explanation or something that I don't know that improves the performace or something and justifies the ROF ...

[Gallo Rojo]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo



The reason why Germany and the US are usually modeled with most care is simply the fact,

… So we are agree about that German and US OOBs are most carefully modeled than those of USSR … … Great… let’s continue …

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

that it's easy to get good information on them - on German material even better then on US gear - just try to find something on the net...

Yes, I guess that it could be very difficult to get good information from the other side of the “iron curtain” ... particulary now that we are in 1970 and we are looking for the plans of the SS-20 missiles! :rolleyes:

Sorry about the sarcasm I didn’t want to be rude, honestly, I just couldn’t resist …


Look, I’m not talking only about OOB (sorry I get out of the topic, which was H2H and the 76.2mm gun)

How many MC have been realized?
Three: Two from the German perspective, one from USMC perspective. Any Soviet one? Nop!

Regular campaigns organically included in the game (namely that they come with MC CD if you buy it):
US Army/USMC: Preparing the Way; From Utah to the Rinh; The Victors; Tulagi: The First Offensive; Guadalcanal = 6 (I’m not counting “Long road to Victory” Because is a combination of the first trhee).
Germany: Watch Word Freedom; Stalingrad; Romel to the Rescue = 3
USSR: Heroes of the Motherland = 1
United Kingdom: Normandy Gold = 1
Japan: Zero! (no, not a campaign about the famous fighter just not a one single campaign …)

How many data do you need to collect to design a fun campaign? … Not much!
I have the story board for a Stalingrad Soviet side campaign based upon Rodmistrev XIII Rifle Guards division … And didn’t take me to long … I design a story board for Saturn & Uranus operations that will be used in “Russian Steel” Campaign (I didn’t include this one in the list because is a “private initiative”), and wasn’t so hard … And I have another story board for German Invasion to France in 1940 … What I have not is time to design them … but is easy to get good data for a Soviet side campaign … but there was only one designed …

Regarding the OOB … you know … you don’t need to much data to put a T-34/57 in the game (ok, there were very few of these … but there were more than the Maus … and more than Panther Huh –a unit that, by the way, as far as I know, needed a weak HT equipped with the infra red vision device to operate … but it’s not the case in the game! All you need is the Panther!) … you don’t need to much research to include some Guards Heavy Tanks! (the fact that you included them in your version is one of the things that I like most about H2H) … you don’t need to know much about soviet army to not link tank-desant troops to a only single type of MBT (a particularly crap one, for the worst).

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

I would have loved to have a Russian with some knowledge on WWII working on better OOBs, but I don't know a single one...

May be you have a point here. Let’s analyze this a little bit …
Firstly … probably there is a linguistic barrier.
Second, I knew one. I don’t know how deep was his knowledge about WWII, but he was a SPWAW fan. I played a couple of PBEM with him (he was dam good) … the guy run out of the Game when 7.0 comes out … totally pissed of about how Russian tanks had been modeled in this version (you probably remember those bitter discussions when 7.0) … and that wasn’t the first time that he had felt that Russian were “the duck of the wedding” in SPWAW (I don’t know if this expression exist in English … it means that you have been invited to a wedding, but only because it suppose that you are dinner).

Any way … you’re right … there aren’t to much Russian players out there … but may be there could be a few more if Russian SPWaW’s were a little more “nicer” than they are.
So the question is: Are the Russians OOB not that cared than American or Geman’s ones because there are few (or none) Russians helping … or Are few Russians helping because they feel that may be they are not very welcome?
Same thing is applicable to Japanese.

To sum up … I have no doubt that if there were 20 or 30 Russians regularly posting at the forum and interested on the game (as there are Americans and Germans and other Nations (Finnish for example)) … well, the Russian OOB should be much better than it is and we had much more Soviet side campaigns. But not only because of that they were helping, but also because they were potential buyers!

Originally posted by Panzer Leo

so US and German units are definetely modeled the best, although I tried to get rid of rare German units in the German OOB in H2H - you will not find the Maus or Sturmtiger available for normal purchase, along with many other things that got thrown out...it was one of the things I tried to care most of, to get more historical setups for German troops...

I know that you did … I have a big respect for your version.
Now … look … I’ll tell you which is my opinion:
I have no problem with the Germans having the Mousse or the SturmTiger or whatever (except probably for the Panther Huh, since it gives an unfair advantage –it wont give it if it were very very expensive and needed to be escorted by a Half-truck).
When I have problems is when Germans and Americans have those toys … and Russians do not have the T-34/57 … 57mm ATG is not available until late 43 while it was in Soviet arsenal since 41 (although in very short numbers, I now, but there were more 57mm than Mausse tanks, by the sure) … tankodesantikys can only be attached to one single MBT …. And I could go and go and go …

My general feeling is that there are certain nations that are better treated than others. And is not just my opinion (I now a lot of friends that were big SPWaW fans and run out of the game because of this).
And I give you another example but not related with the Russians: now a lot of players who I respect that are in the opinion that is almost impossible to beat the Americans … I don’t play too much in the western front, so I can not affirm it by my self … I think that you probably agree in this point (or at least in that they should be modeled in other way), since in your version American’s have a very different experience and leader rankings than they have in SPWaW 7.1

Now … SPWaW is a free game. I now that Matrix team dedicates a lot of time on it. I really respect that. And I really enjoy the game and (although all I have said) I’m a big fan. And I’m not saying that they consciously gives little care to Soviet OOB “just because…” … I think that they do because most of the people push for the Americans and the Germans, because they are the nations that most of the people like to play with … but … you know … But, just as Gorgias pointed above, I’m worry about Combat Leader …. I mean … My favorites nations to play are Soviet Union, United Kingdom (which wont be included in CL) and Germany (which I have no doubt that will be very well cared in CL) … now … I can live with a not-that-good Soviet OOB in a free game like SPWaW … but … Will I pay 65 + shipping US Dollars (which is A LOT of money for me) jut to be “the duck of the wedding”?

I doubt it.

Any way … sorry about this long speech ... This pots is about H2H, and I finished talking about v7.1 and Combat Leader … It’s obvious that what I should do is post this in Combat Leader Forum. And that’s what I’ll do…

Best,
Gallo

[gorgias96]

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/project_1.html

Look slowly this page. U´ll see a little number at the 350A ammunition... the number 17... u can read at end of the tables....

17. production cancelled in 43.

Well what did kind of ammunition use the F-34 then?

And in the another hand why do u see so clear that the most part of ammunition used by the 76 mm was the 350A?? There is the same probablities for use one than another one (is most logical to use the B if was seen that the A was deficient)

By the way.... the 76.2 mm ATG m42 used too bad ammunition?? Well Ian Hogg (an expert recognized around the world more than Lorrin) in his book artillery of twentieth century gives it a pen about 108 mm to 90º and 1000 mm (not apcr). Is he "mad" too?


Yes i trust absolutely in Matrix team when we speak about German and USA OOBs.... but in the USSR OOB the same errors are commited one and another time..... Yes.... Gallo is right when he says that they did not include the T34 57 mm (or KV 57 mm) When it participed as TDs in the siege to Moscú in later 41 and 42. More of them had in the battlefield in 1942 that Tigers..... (http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_57.html) But they dont appear in any way.......

Well i dont like to say this but a criteria have been used with the German OOB and "others" with the soviet..... that is sure.... If their icons and grafics are uglier than the germans !!!!!

Ok i dont post any more in this topic for is stupid continue with the same discusion ad infinitum.... but is true the soviets are underestimated a lot.... while the germans are the "favorites" in this game.....

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by gorgias96
http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/project_1.html
.... but is true the soviets are underestimated a lot.... while the germans are the "favorites" in this game.....

Nothing new

Well, it's the same problem I have with your last post like I had with your previous...you throw in some numbers and say "ohhh the Russians are soooo underrated"...

What do you think I shall do ?

You expext me to change the H2H OOBs, because you are screaming the loudest ?

So if you really want to do something and not just wine around here, go and do some research work - surprise me !
If you say that the BR-350A was stopped in production in '43 and I can't see nothing in it, except that there might have been a change to another round somewhen...

Was it in Jan or Dec '43 - how many BR-350A were in stock and were they used up - how long did it take for the new round to actually reach the battlefield - 6 month or less ?
The same with you, Gallo Rojo - there's no doubt the Russians had a round that could penetrate over 100mm (no APCR), because any well machined round with a good AP cap could achieve that easily with the F-34 gun...but I know only of very little of these rounds ever produced - almost nothing...but if Ian Hogg has some good numbers, like 30% of the rounds issued from march '44 on where of the APCBC type, you got a good point there - but it takes nothing less then this to come up with, to really make peoples minds change (mine included)...

If you cannot come up with a good researched (or anyone else) answer to a lot of questions, I simply have no reason to change anything...why should I ? My rule for H2H OOBs was and will ever be to do no changes to the data until I can "proof" my new one is more accurate.
The thing I know for shure is, that in the beginning of the war in the East, captured T-34s carried the BR-350A as standard ammo and the performence in the game for this ammo is absolutely correct (no, sorry - it's better then in real, because the flaws are not worked into the OOBs).

If you can show when and in what numbers the ammo shifted to a better round, let us all know and we would really appreciate it - but till now you were not really that helpfull other then bringing up this topic...so go and start to work...

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo


The picture on Russian Battle field is a T-34m43 model, not a m42. That's by sure.
As far as I know, was m43 wich incorporated the hexagonal Turret(the one that is in the picture is an hexagonal turret). This hex turret had more internal space and a better internal lay out, so crew men could move confortabely and load the gun faster.

m42 had a variety of turrets, but all were similar in aspect. Diference were that there was a "soft edge" one and a "hard edge" one ... I think that one of those turrets was easy to produce and more endurable than the other one ... but I'm not sure ... What is sure is that the internal layout was similar to m41, so I don't know why there is an improvenment in ROF ...

Any way, forget about it ... is not really importan ... may be there are another explanation or something that I don't know that improves the performace or something and justifies the ROF ...

But the "hard edge" turret is a different and larger turret design (the introduction of the Mickey Mouse hatches).

Go here to compare:

Onwar - m41

Onwar m42

Onwar m43

So the data in the game should be for a uparmored hard edge turret...

[chief]

Panzer Leo:
Wanting to try ur H2h Mod and not losing my SPwaw 7.1 I went out an upgraded my machine from 2Gbs HD to 20Gbs and boosted my RAM to 64. I did this based on all the reviews/comments I read here. (forum)
I have only tried the tutorial so far and have found the H2H Mod worthy of all its revues it was worth the upgrade.
THANK YOU for all your work and excellent Mod.
Resp: Chief:D

[Gallo Rojo]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo


But the "hard edge" turret is a different and larger turret design (the introduction of the Mickey Mouse hatches).

You're right ... I was a little tired of typing when I posted that … I was wrong when I said soft edge and hard edge …

I was trying to said "Cast" turret and "Welded" Turret; Those were the m41 and m2 models turret (plus there was one m42 version with a very curious mantelete that looks like the M10 Wolverine mantelete) …

Hard Edge, Soft Edge, Laminate and ChKZ, were the m43 version turrets...

By the way ... I have remembered is that m42 had some improvements its suspension system, and also it had more wheels with rubber tyre, which gives it a better cross country performance and avoid a kind of “vibration” when tank rolled –Now I realize that this could be a good reason about why T-34m42 has a better fire control than m41 in SPWaW.

cheers

Gallo